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Offline sspxbvm

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Pope Francis???
« on: May 24, 2013, 12:33:28 PM »
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  • How many of you knew this existed? ...

    "cuм ex Apostolatus Officio"

    Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 15th February 1559
    (Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357)

    Text translated by Mr John S. Daly


    By virtue of the Apostolic office which, despite our unworthiness, has been entrusted to Us by God, We are responsible for the general care of the flock of the Lord. Because of this, in order that the flock may be faithfully guarded and beneficially directed, We are bound to be diligently watchful after the manner of a vigilant Shepherd and to ensure most carefully that certain people who consider the study of the truth beneath them should be driven out of the sheepfold of Christ and no longer continue to disseminate error from positions of authority. We refer in particular to those who in this age, impelled by their sinfulness and supported by their cunning, are attacking with unusual learning and malice the discipline of the orthodox Faith, and who, moreover, by perverting the import of Holy Scripture, are striving to rend the unity of the Catholic Church and the seamless tunic of the Lord.

    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.

    2 Hence, concerning these matters, We have held mature deliberation with our venerable brothers the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church; and, upon their advice and with their unanimous agreement, we now enact as follows:-

    In respect of each and every sentence of excommunication, suspension, interdict and privation and any other sentences, censures and penalties against heretics or schismatics, enforced and promulgated in any way whatsoever by any of Our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs, or by any who were held to be such (even by their "litterae extravagantes" i.e. private letters), or by the sacred Councils received by the Church of God, or by decrees of the Holy Fathers and the statutes, or by the sacred Canons and the Constitutions and Apostolic Ordinations - all these measures, by Apostolic authority, We approve and renew, that they may and must be observed in perpetuity and, if perchance they be no longer in lively observance, that they be restored to it.

    Thus We will and decree that the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties be incurred without exception by all members of the following categories:

    (i) Anysoever who, before this date, shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things.

    (ii) Anysoever who (which may God, in His clemency and goodness to all, deign to avert) shall in the future so deviate or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or shall provoke or commit either or both of these.

    (iii) Anysoever who shall be detected to have so deviated, fallen, incurred, provoked or committed, or who shall confess to have done any of these things, or who shall be convicted of having done any of these things.

    These sanctions, moreover, shall be incurred by all members of these categories, of whatever status, grace, order, condition and pre-eminence they may be, even if they be endowed with the Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal, Primatial or some other greater Ecclesiastical dignity, or with the honour of the Cardinalate and of the Universal Apostolic See by the office of Legate, whether temporary or permanent, or if they be endowed with even worldly authority or excellence, as Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor.

    All this We will and decree.

    3. Nonetheless, We also consider it proper that those who do not abandon evil deeds through love of virtue should be deterred therefrom by fear of punishment; and We are aware that Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors (who ought to teach others and offer them a good example in order to preserve them in the Catholic Faith), by failing in their duty sin more gravely than others; since they not only damn themselves, but also drag with them into perdition and into the pit of death countless other people entrusted to their care or rule, or otherwise subject to them, by their like counsel and agreement.

    Hence, by this Our Constitution which is to remain valid in perpetuity, in abomination of so great a crime (than which none in the Church of God can be greater or more pernicious) by the fulness of our Apostolic Power, We enact, determine, decree and define (since the aforesaid sentences, censures and penalties are to remain in efficacious force and strike all those whom they are intended to strike) that:-

    (i) each and every member of the following categories - Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals, Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors - who:

    (a)hitherto (as We have already said) have been detected, or have confessed to have, or have been convicted of having, deviated [i.e. from the Catholic Faith], or fallen into heresy or incurred schism or provoked or committed either or both of these;

    (b) in the future also shall [so] deviate, or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or provoke or commit either or both of these, or shall be detected or shall confess to have, or shall be convicted of having [so] deviated, or fallen into heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these;

    (since in this they are rendered more inexcusable than the rest) in addition to the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties, shall also automatically, without any exercise of law or application of fact, be thoroughly, entirely and perpetually deprived of:- their Orders and Cathedrals, even Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, the honour of the Cardinalate and the office of any embassy whatsoever, not to mention both active and passive voting rights, all authority, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, be they functional or sinecures, secular or religious of whatsoever Order, which they may have obtained by any concessions whatsoever, or by Apostolic Dispensations to title, charge and administration or otherwise howsoever, and in which or to which they may have any right whatsoever, likewise any whatsoever fruits, returns or annual revenues from like fruits, returns and revenues reserved for and assigned to them, as well as Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and Imperial Power;

    (ii) that, moreover, they shall be unfit and incapable in respect of these things and that they shall be held to be backsliders and subverted in every way, just as if they had previously abjured heresy of this kind in public trial; that they shall never at any time be able to be restored, returned, reinstated or rehabilitated to their former status or Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or the Cardinalate, or other honour, any other dignity, greater or lesser, any right to vote, active or passive, or authority, or Monasteries and benefices, or Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and positions of Imperial power; but rather that they shall be abandoned to the judgement of the secular power to be punished after due consideration, unless there should appear in them signs of true penitence and the fruits of worthy repentance, and, by the kindness and clemency of the See itself, they shall have been sentenced to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction;

    (iii) that all such individuals also shall be held, treated and reputed as such by everyone, of whatsoever status, grade, order, condition or pre-eminence he may be and whatsoever excellence may be his, even Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal and Primatial or other greater Ecclesiastical dignity and even the honour of the Cardinalate, or secular, even the authority of Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor, and as such must be avoided and must be deprived of the sympathy of all natural kindess.

    4. [By this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] further enact, determine, decree and define:-]

    that those who shall have claimed to have the right of patronage or of nominating suitable persons to Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or to Monasteries or other Ecclesiastical benefices which may be vacant by privation of this kind (in order that those which shall have been vacant for a long time may not be exposed to the unfit, but, having been rescued from enslavement to heretics, may be granted to suitable persons who would faithfully direct their people in the paths of justice), shall be bound to present other persons suitable to Churches, Monasteries and benefices of this kind, to Us, or to the Roman Pontiff at that time existing, within the time determined by law, or by their concordats, or by compacts entered into with the said See; and that, if they shall not have done so when the said period shall have elapsed, the full and free disposition of the aforesaid Churches, Monasteries and benefices shall by the fulness of the law itself devolve upon Us or upon the aforesaid Roman Pontiff.

    5. [By this Our Constitution,] moreover, [which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, decree and define:-]

    as follows concerning those who shall have presumed in any way knowingly to receive, defend, favour, believe or teach the teaching of those so apprehended, confessed or convicted:
    (i) they shall automatically incur sentence of excommunication;
    (ii) they shall be rendered infamous;
    (iii) they shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office, deliberation, Synod, general or provincial Council and any conclave of Cardinals or other congregation of the faithful, and from any election or function of witness, so that they cannot take part in any of these by vote, in person, by writings, representative or by any agent;
    (iv) they shall be incapable of making a will;
    (v) they shall not accede to the succession of heredity;
    (vi) no one shall be forced to respond to them concerning any business;
    (vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;
    (viii) if they shall have been Advocates, their pleading shall nowise be received;
    (ix) if they shall have been Notaries, docuмents drafted by them shall be entirely without strength or weight;
    (x) clerics shall be automatically deprived of each and every Church, even Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal, Primatial, and likewise of dignities, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, and even, as has been already mentioned, of qualifications, howsoever obtained by them;
    (xi) laymen, moreover, in the same way - even if they be qualified, as already described, or endowed with the aforesaid dignities or anysoever Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and temporal goods possessed by them;
    (xii) finally, all Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and goods of this kind shall be confiscated, made public and shall remain so, and shall be made the rightful property of those who shall first occupy them if these shall be sincere in faith, in the unity of the Holy Roman Church and under obedience to Us and to Our successors the Roman Pontiffs canonically entering office.

    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-]

    that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.

    7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:-
    that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:
    (i) the clergy, secular and religious;
    (ii) the laity;
    (iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
    (iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security;
    shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).

    To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.

    8. [The provisions of this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity are to take effect] notwithstanding any Constitutions, Apostolic Ordinations, privileges, indults or Apostolic Letters, whether they be to these same Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates and Cardinals or to any others, and whatsoever may be their import and form, and with whatsoever sub-clauses or decrees they may have been granted, even "motu proprio" and by certain knowledge, from the fulness of the Apostolic power or even consistorially or otherwise howsoever; and even if they have been repeatedly approved and renewed,have been included in the corpus of the Law or strengthened by any capital conclaves whatsoever (even by oath) or by Apostolic confirmation or by anysoever other endorsements or if they were legislated by ourself. By this present docuмent instead of by express mention, We specially and expressly derogate the provisions of all these by appropriate deletion and word-for-word substitution, so that these may otherwise remain in force.

    9. In order, however, that this docuмent may be brought to the notice of all whom it concerns, We wish it or a transcription of it (to which, when made by the hand of the undersigned Public Notary and fortified by the seal of any person established in ecclesiastical dignity, We decree that complete trust must be accorded) to be published and affixed in the Basilica of the Prince of the Apostles in this City and on the doors of the Apostolic Chancery and in the pavilion of the Campus Florae by some of our couriers; [we] will [further] that a quantity of copies affixed in this place should be distributed, and that publication and affixing of this kind should suffice and be held as right, solemn and legitimate, and that no other publication should be required or awaited.

    10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul.

    Given in Rome at Saint Peter's in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1559, 15th February, in the fourth year of our Pontificate.

    + I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church…



    What do we think of the one who is called Pope Francis or even Benedict XVI??  Opinions, please!!


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 01:43:45 PM »
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  • In reverse order to your questions:

    A.I'd say, off the top of my head, they need to get a good lawyer.

    B.I had heard of it, by way of reference being made to it, but never bothered to trouble myself to read it until now. Glad I finally did.


    Online Stubborn

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 02:38:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: sspxbvm
    How many of you knew this existed? ...

    "cuм ex Apostolatus Officio"[....]

    What do we think of the one who is called Pope Francis or even Benedict XVI??  Opinions, please!!


    I knew "cuм ex Apostolatus Officio" existed and would like to make an observation or two about it - but I don't think this is the right forum for that........ anyway, I cannot speak for everyone but I think Pope Francis has done his best to show he is another modernist pope doing his best to pickup where his conciliar predecessors left off.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TKGS

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #3 on: May 24, 2013, 03:14:35 PM »
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  • Are these rhetorical questions?

    Yes.  I have known about this Bull for a long time.  It is what provides all Catholics with the legal authority to reject the claims of known heretics, such as Ratzinger and Bergoglio, when they are elected to the papacy.  If there was still an emperor we could appeal to him (i.e., the "secular arm") to forcibly remove heretics from the papal throne, but I think that was precisely why the Conciliar "popes" have been so diligent in eliminating all Catholic confessional States.

    Offline s2srea

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #4 on: May 24, 2013, 03:41:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    If there was still an emperor we could appeal to him (i.e., the "secular arm") to forcibly remove heretics from the papal throne, but I think that was precisely why the Conciliar "popes" have been so diligent in eliminating all Catholic confessional States.


    Wow- I never thought about that.


    Offline Charlemagne

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #5 on: May 24, 2013, 03:50:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Are these rhetorical questions?

    Yes.  I have known about this Bull for a long time.  It is what provides all Catholics with the legal authority to reject the claims of known heretics, such as Ratzinger and Bergoglio, when they are elected to the papacy.  If there was still an emperor we could appeal to him (i.e., the "secular arm") to forcibly remove heretics from the papal throne, but I think that was precisely why the Conciliar "popes" have been so diligent in eliminating all Catholic confessional States.


    Excellent post. I've used this Bull often as our right to reject the usurpers, but the neo-trads just pretend that the Bull doesn't exist.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Napoli

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #6 on: May 24, 2013, 05:27:53 PM »
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  • It warms my heart every time I read this docuмent. I can feel the loving arms of Holy Mother Church around me. The true Church that has existed for 2000 years. I rejoice at reading the truths that the Church has revealed to us and can never be changed. Blessed be God!

    Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

    Online Stubborn

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #7 on: May 24, 2013, 06:03:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Are these rhetorical questions?

    Yes.  I have known about this Bull for a long time.  It is what provides all Catholics with the legal authority to reject the claims of known heretics, such as Ratzinger and Bergoglio, when they are elected to the papacy.  If there was still an emperor we could appeal to him (i.e., the "secular arm") to forcibly remove heretics from the papal throne, but I think that was precisely why the Conciliar "popes" have been so diligent in eliminating all Catholic confessional States.



    I disagree with TKGS' reply but admit there are somethings I do not understand about this Constitution. To me, this one's not so clear like Quo Primum is clear.

    Initially, I understand this constitution to be condemning / defrocking all those who: "...have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things." Basically it's condemning the NO and it's entire post conciliar membership. I do understand that part.


    First, I disagree with TKGS, because I would say that it gives Catholics a teaching to reference, but I do not read where it provides us with any authority to reject claims of papal validity (if that is what you mean) because paragraph 1 states that we have no authority to judge the pope: "...the Roman Pontiff,........who may judge all and be judged by none in this world...." as such, even an appeal to a "strong in the faith emperor" is useless - except perhaps in the hopes that the action of appealing to a secular authority might humble the pope into amending his life and return to doing his job as Vicar of Christ.


    Next, not sure I get this part -  even if the pope were to amend his life and actually convert and start doing his job, according to cuм ex Apostolatus Officio Paragraph 6.2,  it would make no difference, not only would he still not be the pope, for as long as he lives he never can or will be the pope (or cardinal or bishop) no matter what: "......it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity ........nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation." Seems pretty clear that if he was ever a heretic then he is never to be trusted as a member of the hierarchy / clergy(?) of the Church.


    Third, it also seems to state that all we can really do about such a situation is to withdraw our obedience and devotion to him and avoid him: Paragraph 7.4 ".....even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs...."

    Fourth, unlike any other Constitution that I am aware of, and perhaps it's because of the subject matter, am I correct in saying that cuм ex Apostolatus Officio offers no remedy? Once a heretic, then any position within the clergy is lost and becomes off limits - forever?


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline roscoe

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #8 on: May 24, 2013, 06:31:55 PM »
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  • Paul IV would say-- 'Unelected Illegal anti-pope.'  :facepalm:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline sspxbvm

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 07:08:35 PM »
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  • Let us remember the infamous book of Ratzinger: "The God of Jesus Christ" which was never retracted.  

    http://www.ignatius.com/Products/GJC-H/the-god-of-jesus-christ.aspx

    Let us also remember "Pope Francis" is an honorary Freemason and let us remember his views on same sex civil "unions" which is another way of condoning sin.

    These things alone are evidence enough....


    Offline TKGS

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 07:26:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I disagree with TKGS' reply but admit there are somethings I do not understand about this Constitution. To me, this one's not so clear like Quo Primum is clear.

    Initially, I understand this constitution to be condemning / defrocking all those who: "...have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things." Basically it's condemning the NO and it's entire post conciliar membership. I do understand that part.


    Evidently, you do understand, you just don't want to accept it.  Though I am not willing to go so far as to condemn the entire "post conciliar membership".  I don't know that all within the Novus Ordo structures are actually heretics and I am certain that there are many people within those structures who are heart-broken over the current state of affairs.

    Quote from: Stubborn
    First, I disagree with TKGS, because I would say that it gives Catholics a teaching to reference, but I do not read where it provides us with any authority to reject claims of papal validity (if that is what you mean) because paragraph 1 states that we have no authority to judge the pope: "...the Roman Pontiff,........who may judge all and be judged by none in this world...." as such, even an appeal to a "strong in the faith emperor" is useless - except perhaps in the hopes that the action of appealing to a secular authority might humble the pope into amending his life and return to doing his job as Vicar of Christ.


    Actually, no one is judging the pope because the Bull provides that the individual was never the pope to begin with:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

    I reject Bergoglio's claim to be pope as much as I reject the claim of "Pope Michael" (or any of the various claimants around the world who were elected by friends and family) to be pope.  Just because it was on EWTN doesn't make it so.

    Quote from: Stubborn
    Next, not sure I get this part -  even if the pope were to amend his life and actually convert and start doing his job, according to cuм ex Apostolatus Officio Paragraph 6.2,  it would make no difference, not only would he still not be the pope, for as long as he lives he never can or will be the pope (or cardinal or bishop) no matter what: "......it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity ........nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation." Seems pretty clear that if he was ever a heretic then he is never to be trusted as a member of the hierarchy / clergy(?) of the Church.


    You really do understand the docuмent.  Even if Bergoglio completely reformed and converted to the Catholic Faith, he would not "automatically" become pope.

    Quote from: Stubborn
    Third, it also seems to state that all we can really do about such a situation is to withdraw our obedience and devotion to him and avoid him: Paragraph 7.4 ".....even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs...."


    As individuals, and for practical purposes, you have got this one correct also.  This is why no one can morally accuse the sedevacantist of today of schism for that reason alone.  When one rejects a particular pope because he is an heretic, the one who rejects him is not schismatic.  What this docuмent does not answer is what is the status of the person who absolutely accepts such a man as pope, honors him as pope, condemns those who reject the claim, but still disobeys everything he says or makes personal judgment about all of his teachings.  The docuмent does not just say that we can "withdraw our obedience and devotion" but to "avoid him as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs".

    Quote from: Stubborn
    Fourth, unlike any other Constitution that I am aware of, and perhaps it's because of the subject matter, am I correct in saying that cuм ex Apostolatus Officio offers no remedy? Once a heretic, then any position within the clergy is lost and becomes off limits - forever?


    Here is where you seem to misunderstand something.  Once an unrepentant heretic, of course one is lost forever.  But this docuмent does not condemn those who repent.  It merely says that once a person loses office (or does not obtain office) due to heresy, he cannot simply repent and automatically get his office back.  He has resigned his office within the Church.  That resignation is permanent.  Gaining an office within the Church would require a new appointment.  

    This does not disqualify him from office within the Church after his return to the Faith of the Church--but I have to seriously ask:  Why would anyone trust such a person in the future?  Would you have trusted Martin Luther to be a Cardinal after he had broken from the Church and wrought so much damage to souls and nations even if he later repented?


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 07:30:57 PM »
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  • Pope Francis?

    Offline sspxbvm

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #12 on: May 25, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »
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  • Finally, an answer to why the labeling and name calling:  "Sedevacantists"....like they are the big bad "boogie man"!!

    Some of those who are labeled are on to something big! Let's start listening.


    Quote
    5. [By this Our Constitution,] moreover, [which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, decree and define:-]

    as follows concerning those who shall have presumed in any way knowingly to receive, defend, favour, believe or teach the teaching of those so apprehended, confessed or convicted:
    (i) they shall automatically incur sentence of excommunication;
    (ii) they shall be rendered infamous;
    (iii) they shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office, deliberation, Synod, general or provincial Council and any conclave of Cardinals or other congregation of the faithful, and from any election or function of witness, so that they cannot take part in any of these by vote, in person, by writings, representative or by any agent;
    (iv) they shall be incapable of making a will;
    (v) they shall not accede to the succession of heredity;
    (vi) no one shall be forced to respond to them concerning any business;
    (vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;
    (viii) if they shall have been Advocates, their pleading shall nowise be received;
    (ix) if they shall have been Notaries, docuмents drafted by them shall be entirely without strength or weight;
    (x) clerics shall be automatically deprived of each and every Church, even Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal, Primatial, and likewise of dignities, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, and even, as has been already mentioned, of qualifications, howsoever obtained by them;
    (xi) laymen, moreover, in the same way - even if they be qualified, as already described, or endowed with the aforesaid dignities or anysoever Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and temporal goods possessed by them;
    (xii) finally, all Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and goods of this kind shall be confiscated, made public and shall remain so, and shall be made the rightful property of those who shall first occupy them if these shall be sincere in faith, in the unity of the Holy Roman Church and under obedience to Us and to Our successors the Roman Pontiffs canonically entering office.

    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-]

    that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.

    Online Stubborn

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #13 on: May 25, 2013, 02:01:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Stubborn
    I disagree with TKGS' reply but admit there are somethings I do not understand about this Constitution. To me, this one's not so clear like Quo Primum is clear.

    Initially, I understand this constitution to be condemning / defrocking all those who: "...have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things." Basically it's condemning the NO and it's entire post conciliar membership. I do understand that part.


    Evidently, you do understand, you just don't want to accept it.  Though I am not willing to go so far as to condemn the entire "post conciliar membership".  I don't know that all within the Novus Ordo structures are actually heretics and I am certain that there are many people within those structures who are heart-broken over the current state of affairs.




    You replied that "I don't know that all within the Novus Ordo structures are actually heretics and I am certain that there are many people within those structures who are heart-broken over the current state of affairs."


    Ok, thanks for that. Upon re-reading the constitution, it appears that this constitution is initially targeting: "false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction..................so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds"
    It then continues on to be all inclusive of everyone who deviates from the Catholic faith without exception and without regard to position of authority within or without of the Church: Thus We will and decree that the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties be incurred without exception by all members of the following categories:  . . . . . .Anysoever who, before this date, [and in the future] shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy..."


    This, does not dictate that one must actually be a heretic, it states that *anyone at all* who deviates from the faith suffers the penalties - since it is fact that all members of the NO have deviated from the faith to at least some degree, this decree goes beyond condemning the pope because it (apparently) condemns all clergy and everyone else ("Anysoever") who accepts the errors taught by the conciliar Church and participates in it's worship services -  has in fact, deviated from the faith.

    I do not see where the many heart broken NOers who begrudgingly hate whats happened but accept the conciliar religion, excludes them from the penalties dictated in this constitution.


    And yes, I agree and I admit that I do not want to accept it, but what *I* want does not matter at all. What matters to me is that I recognize and accept the truth when I see it without regard to the ramifications or to my personal preferences. At this point however, I remain cautiously skeptical.

    For me, in order for me personally to accept this Constitution as a justification for SVism and fully agree with SVs, I need to understand that cuм ex does indeed teach such justification - currently, I do not *entirely* accept that it does so *for now* I continue to *not* agree with it completely for the following reasons.

    1) To me, it seems all but inconceivable or at least illogical that any pope would ever provide the laity any legal authority to in any way reject the highest of all authority in the Church at that time or for any future time. He and his successors were given the keys and the power to bind and loose - can the pope make the world flat because he declares it to be flat? - no - and I believe that neither can he bestow or provide the laity with his authority and his responsibility.....so I do not understand how this constitution authorizes or made us responsible to ever declare that the Chair is vacant.

    2) Certainly Pope Paul IV understood that were he to promulgate such a teaching  that he would be risking the laity in rejecting not only him - but also  all future popes whether they be valid popes or not. For me, this constitution has as of yet *clearly* dictated that the pope has entrusted the laity - or anyone for that matter - with this responsibility, much less provided them with the authority to do so.

    3) While no one can deny this says that: "(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;  -  which is to say that the election itself never happened - from which we can agree that means that no pope was ever elected - even if the pope was a good pope, the election would still be null because the Cardinals, having deviated from the faith due to them holding heretical beliefs, rendered their vote null.

    4) Something does not make sense *to me* because in the 1st paragraph, it testifies that the pope can indeed deviate from the faith  - yet remain pope. It even verifies the pope does not lose his office when he deviates from the faith because it takes that a step further by reenforcing the teaching that the further the pope deviates from the faith,  the more diligently he is to be counteracted.

    This seems to me to contradict with the following paragraphs that allow no one in the hierarchy, including the pope, to deviate from the faith lest they lose their office and everything that comes with it when or if they do deviate.

    5) Another thing that makes no sense *to me* is the ambiguity of declaring that Cardinals who deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy lose any right to vote - their vote is null and utterly worthless. IOW, it is as if they are not present when they cast their vote.

    Well what happens in a "split decision" when the deciding vote comes from that one Cardinal who is a heretic? Or perhaps only 3 or 4 or 6 or 9 or 50 Cardinals are voting illegally and the one they voted for is elected by a margin so close that the heretical Cardinal's votes are the votes that decided who the next pope is?

    6) This decree retains it's authoritative force forever - yet there is no formula given for a remedy were the pope  to have deviated from the faith.  Per the constitution, there is no remedy. Zero, none, nadda, ziltch. When the Cardinals are heretics, who will be in a position of correcting the whole election process when they cannot elect a pope? No one. This constitution eliminates all possibility of a remedy. If Divine intervention is the only remedy, there is no mention of it whatsoever.  - This is unlike any decree that I am aware of and gives good reason to be suspicious of it - IMO.  

    7) Is this the complete Constitution or is there more to it than what is published here?

    8)  Is this the only papal docuмent on this subject that SVs rely on or are there other Papal or Council Bulls that teach the same thing or can be cross referenced?





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Napoli

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    Pope Francis???
    « Reply #14 on: May 25, 2013, 07:40:03 PM »
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  • If Paul IV witnessed this church. He would assume he had lost his mind.
    Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!