Author Topic: Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars  (Read 1276 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
« on: November 02, 2009, 08:20:10 AM »
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    Offline Belloc

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 08:23:42 AM »
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  • Next, Brittany Spears??? Geesh....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 02:02:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    That's just a man named Bartlett, who fell from the Faith and made himself pope in order to sully the reputation of traditional Catholicism.


    that happens a lot (Pope Michael) in SV circles....hmmm....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Matthew

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 07:55:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    That's just a man named Bartlett, who fell from the Faith and made himself pope in order to sully the reputation of traditional Catholicism.

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    if you mention Star Wars in a papal encyclical, you're not the pope. Period.

    Star Wars does not pertain to the Faith, so, imagine the strength of the same conclusion when the writing pertains to a doctrinal error, such as:

    "if one professes the innate right to religious liberty in a dogmatic constitution (not merely signed by a pope, but also by the body of world bishops), he's not the pope. Period."

    Much more absurd professing heresy in a weightier document than an encyclical. This is an example of the argumentum a fortiori.


    I understand an "a fortiori" argument.

    However, I was half-joking about the Star Wars thing -- I wasn't seriously discussing what a pope could or couldn't talk about -- I was very much talking on a water cooler level.

    It certainly clashes in the ears when the Vicar of Christ (or one who pretends to be) mixes lofty language, his exalted Office, and something banal like Brittney Spears, Star Wars, or Doublemint gum. That's classic irony and ironic humor -- it makes one laugh from irony because of the sheer contrast between the two.

    If I was making up something to mock the self-styled "pope" Augustine, I don't think I could come up with any better.

    Matthew
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    Offline Lybus

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 10:35:29 PM »
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  • You gotta love george lucas. Even Ronald Reagan has made weird star wars references.

    You know, the star wars universe has gotten so enormous that I really don't think that it can maintain any symbolism. The basic plot of good vs evil (when Darth Vader overcomes his slavery of the Emperor and redeems himself by slaying him) has been made overly complex. I mean the Emperor comes back from the grave about seven different times, and luke skywalker goes through all this other trouble that plainly does not conform to the ending of evil in the third (the old movies) movie. In the original movies, the Emperor was evil, plain and simple. He could easily represent Satan, and Darth Vader can be a fallen soul. With the addition of all the extra plot lines, the Emperor has become more human, seen as manipulative and deceptive, rather than blatantly evil, which kind of takes away from the original movies. You see, there is a huge difference between the new movies and the old. The first ones were a battle between good versus evil. The newer ones were more of a battle between human wills. It was not so much focused on the divinity as it was on opposing ambitions. It was far more humanistic, basically.

    I have no idea how Augustine can see the Emperor as the pope O.o. The fact that he makes that anaology is rather disturbing....

    In regards to being a responsible man, would it be interesting to learn, after six years of accumulating all the wisdom you could, that you had it right all alon


    Offline Caminus

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 11:22:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    That's just a man named Bartlett, who fell from the Faith and made himself pope in order to sully the reputation of traditional Catholicism.

    Quote
    if you mention Star Wars in a papal encyclical, you're not the pope. Period.

    Star Wars does not pertain to the Faith, so, imagine the strength of the same conclusion when the writing pertains to a doctrinal error, such as:

    "if one professes the innate right to religious liberty in a dogmatic constitution (not merely signed by a pope, but also by the body of world bishops), he's not the pope. Period."

    Much more absurd professing heresy in a weightier document than an encyclical. This is an example of the argumentum a fortiori.


    First of all, that's not heresy, so you'll have to get off your lazy duff and stop relying on hasty generalizations to do the work for you.  Secondly, at least this man is acting like a Catholic, albeit erroneously, for if you "sedevacantists" truly comprised the true Church, then act like Catholics and elect a new Pope.  What?  Don't you want to bring an end to this crisis?  Catholics without a Pope for 50 years and they've done nothing about it?  Doesn't sound like the true Catholic Church to me.

    Offline Belloc

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 09:09:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    Quote from: Belloc
    Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    That's just a man named Bartlett, who fell from the Faith and made himself pope in order to sully the reputation of traditional Catholicism.


    that happens a lot (Pope Michael) in SV circles....hmmm....

    The Catholic Church allows us to drink alcohol. Imagine, then, a Catholic getting drunk, and then someone blaming it on the Catholic Church for allowing it in the first place! That is analogous to what Belloc just wrote.

    Sedevacantists, first of all, are not an organization.  A sedevacantist is merely a Catholic who happens to subscribe to the particular Catholic conclusion that the current pope cannot be legitimate because of heresy taught to the universal magisterium. If an individual Catholic believes he can elect himself pope, in a conclave with his own family and neighbors on his street, that is his problem. It can neither be blamed on the sedevacantist stand, nor on Catholicism.


    my point was simple, SV may ban together in short run, but continue to fissure in millions of pieces, eelcting "opes", cult leaders (this is GV allegations about Cekeda),etc......

    it is the general mindset and eventual outcomes, always predictable in the end.....

    Individual actions are one thing, true..but a group mindset can produce certain results......hence cults,etc.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 09:59:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lybus
    I have no idea how Augustine can see the Emperor as the pope O.o. The fact that he makes that anaology is rather disturbing....


    Star Wars is gnostic.  I think the "Pope" is onto something here.

    This is terribly narrated but it's very informative:

    http://hollywoodswar.com/home.html


    Offline Caminus

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 11:18:21 PM »
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    Sounds as if you think Catholicism forbids us to make generalizations. I am sure you make them all the time here. These forums are filled with them. What matters is if they can be supported, not that generalizations occur. I certainly won't go into doctrinal details right here in this thread.


    I don't even need to refer to Catholicism, plain old logic states that making hasty generalizations is a logical fallacy.  So why do you refer to other supposed fallacies when I point out your mistake?  Is this yet another fallacy?  Or is this a sad attempt at justifying your intellectual laziness?  

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    You must be talking about Pope Michael because this Pope Augustine is a non-Catholic. Pope Michael didn't act like a Catholic in having his election. Period.


    Why not?  Isn't that what true Catholics ought to do when they've been headless for over 50 years?

    Quote
    Sedevacantists don't solely comprise the Church. I never said so. They do happen to have the correct position with the papal crisis, and do happen to have the least errors, by far, than any other traditionalist.


    I must've mistaken you for a dogmatic sedevacantist who thinks that not only the Pope, but the entire hierarchy has apostasized and that consequently, you only associate with other sedevacantists who have the same opinion.  Is that not correct?

    Quote
    Do about not having a pope? What are the options? First is to make sure not to violate Catholic principle, and it is a violation to expect anyone else can elect the Roman bishop than the clergy and people of the Roman province. That is solid. Nobody during the so-called Western Schism could do anything but promote truth, squelch error, sanctify themselves and pray for the situation. I suppose you thought they did nothing about the situation then, too?


    It's good that you don't want to violate principles in proceeding with a papal election, the problem is that your own position involves in fact, if pressed beyond the purview of your own mind, a violation of several principles, not the least of which is the usurpation of judgment and the violation of the principle of the presumption of law and the legal determination of ipso facto penalties along with authoritative admonishments that must be involved in the external forum in order to establish pertinacity.

    And why do you appeal to a time when a valid Pope reigned?  You deny such an idea in the premise.  Why do you not consider that such a custom and law gives way to the higher principle of the salvation of souls?  You mean to tell me that the entire Church must go without a head for FIFTY years because of some human law?  Get real.  

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 11:22:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Robert Rawhide
    Finally, the Church teaches that reason, enlightened by faith, is a true authority.


    True.

    Further, reason, even sans the light of faith, is authoritative within due limits.  If it were not, none of us could even consider the truths Holy Church proposes, nor submit to the higher authority thereof.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline SJB

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 11:53:33 AM »
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    Sedevacantists don't solely comprise the Church. I never said so. They do happen to have the correct position with the papal crisis, and do happen to have the least errors, by far, than any other traditionalist.


    But the crisis is much deeper that a heretical pope, wouldn't you agree?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Caminus

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    Pope Augustine talks about Star Wars
    « Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 01:41:14 PM »
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    A couple of fallacies here. Surely anything "hasty" is a fault. But the fallacy is that you beg the question that it is hasty. You would have to be a mind reader to say so, because you have no idea what I have in my mind behind what I said. And the other fallacy is to conclude I have nothing just because I have not presented it yet. A fallacy to demand something immediately and when you see it doesn't fall in your lap immediately, you declare hastiness.


    What question precisely do I beg?  Pointing out hastiness and gross generalizations absent proper distinctions doesn't amount to begging anything.  And though I can't "read your mind" I am very familiar with the doctrines in question and the nature of the problem at hand.  You are just intellectually lazy and rely on the "silver bullet" of the term "heresy" as if the matter is self-evident.  Then you balk at someone having the audacity to call into question your "judgment."  And imputing fallacies in order to save face is a sad tactic.  I didn't rely on the fact that you didn't present the entire case, rather I relied on the fact that I know what I'm talking about.  

    Quote from: Caminus
    Why not?  Isn't that what true Catholics ought to do when they've been headless for over 50 years?


    Quote
    Why not, because Catholics should never violate Catholic principle and doctrine.


    I suppose you'll have to demonstrate the fact that the matter is immutable principle and doctrine.  Are you not familiar with the principles of equity?  Or do you simply cling like a pharisee to human custom while the entire Church goes down in flames?  Rather you are hiding behind this alleged "doctrine" in order to exonerate any effort on the part of a "true Catholic."  

    Quote from: Caminus
    I must've mistaken you for a dogmatic sedevacantist who thinks that not only the Pope, but the entire hierarchy has apostasized and that consequently, you only associate with other sedevacantists who have the same opinion.  Is that not correct?


    Quote
    The sedevacantist position is based upon a dogmatic fact. For instance, if an archeologists states that he has the skull of the BVM, we know as a dogmatic fact the skull is not hers.


    You've mixed up so many principles I don't know where to begin, but I suppose I'll start with the fact that a contingent fact of whether or not this or that man is an heretic is no where on the same level as dogmatic truth.  The fact that you think so demonstrates extreme perversity.  

    Quote
    The Holy Ghost would rather have a true pope die than allow him to universally promote something harmful to the faith. Therefore, if a man does so, his claims to be pope are false and it is a dogmatic fact he is not a true pope.


    This is a gratuitious assertion, demanding your own human limitations be applied to God.  Unless of course you claim to be an oracle of God.  And the fact that this or that man is Pope is a dogmatic fact, not the absence of one.  Why do you attempt to gain credibility for your opinions by forcing notions into wrong categories?  Unless you think that your declaration amounts to an authoritative judgment.  

    Quote from: Caminus
    It's good that you don't want to violate principles in proceeding with a papal election, the problem is that your own position involves in fact, if pressed beyond the purview of your own mind, a violation of several principles, not the least of which is the usurpation of judgment and the violation of the principle of the presumption of law and the legal determination of ipso facto penalties along with authoritative admonishments that must be involved in the external forum in order to establish pertinacity.

    And why do you appeal to a time when a valid Pope reigned?  You deny such an idea in the premise.  Why do you not consider that such a custom and law gives way to the higher principle of the salvation of souls?  You mean to tell me that the entire Church must go without a head for FIFTY years because of some human law?  Get real.  


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    Time to get real yourself, so I will inform you of some real Catholic things. You are ignorant of some Catholic principles that throw your thinking, in this matter, out of whack.


    How ironic.

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    It is a catholic moral principle that "a doubtful pope is no pope", just the same as a doubtful sacrament is no sacrament. This is what the SSPX carefully avoids, from what I have seen so far. The SSPX believe the opposite - that if you have a doubt that he may be pope, you must believe he is pope.


    "Doubt" according to what?  You're own judgment or objective ascertainable legal facts?  Your "principle" amounts to saying that a man who entertains subjective doubts about anything at all nullifies objective order.  This is patently ridiculous and is a reckless application of a legitimate concept.  You are most incredibly ignorant of real principles like the presumption of law wherein validity is presumed.  You in fact do the opposite which is an inversion of principle.  If I have a 'doubt' about something, there is a whole host of other things I must consider, in addition to recognizing that even if my 'doubt' was well founded, usurping authority in declaring that such and such is so is a grotesque sin against justice.    

    Quote
    Canon law is mostly human law, and only divine law applies to a pope. Applying human law to a pope is a fallacy. The Roman Pontiff is above canon law. So, presumption of human law does not trump the moral law of a doubtful pope is no pope.


    This again is a distortion of doctrine.  When the Pope acts as legislator, he is indeed above it, but when he functions otherwise he is subject to it.  The Church is not a lawless society.  Your lust for judgment cannot undo the demands of order and justice.  

    Quote
    Finally, the Church teaches that reason, enlightened by faith, is a true authority. This is the authority that concludes the man is not a true pope.


    I usually refain from making comparisons with protestants in this matter, but I have never seen anyone formulate the matter so strikingly similar to the protestant heresy of private judgment and radical individualism.  

     

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