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Author Topic: Pope(?) Leo Doubles Down on Rejecting Co-Redemptrix Title for Mary  (Read 2394 times)

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Offline Geremia

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  • And now female altar-boys. 🤦‍♂️

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    Female altar servers assist Pope Leo XIV at his first public Mass in Rome

    At least one of the altar girls was seen wearing Adidas sneakers.

    Mon Feb 16, 2026 - 10:20 am EST

    ROME (LifeSiteNews) — Two altar girls assisted Pope Leo XIV’s celebration of Mass at a parish in Rome over the weekend.

    On Sunday, for his first public Mass at a Roman parish, Pope Leo visited Santa Maria Regina Pacis in the coastline neighborhood of Ostia. Two female altar servers assisted at the Mass — at least one of them was seen wearing Adidas sneakers.

    This is a developing story…
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    Online AnthonyPadua

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    And now female altar-boys. 🤦‍♂️
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    Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt: "Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21



    Offline OABrownson1876

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  • I don't think the protestant counterargument makes sense.

    Mary was born without sin according to the Immaculate Conception. That means she was justified in the eyes of God. However, Adam and Eve both were born without sin and both were justified in the eyes of God, before they lost their justification through the original sin.

    Being born without the original sin has no relationship with being able to stay justified during one's whole life until death. As long as someone is alive and is not in heaven, sinning is still possible. The sacraments would still be useful, praying would still be useful, being humble would still be useful even for someone who is justified.
    Lazarus, your answer is disjointed, but perhaps I did not distinguish well. Mary was conceived free of original sin and never committed even the slightest sin; in fact, she did not have even any moral imperfections. Several saints were born justified, St. John Baptist, most certainly St. Joseph, the prophet Jeremiah, etc.

    Our Lady continued to increase in sanctifying grace by virtue of her baptism and the other sacraments she received, never having lost any of these sacramental graces through sin. Pius XII's Mystici Corporis says that "our Savior as head of the Mystical Body is the 'only mediator of God and men.'" It makes for a very complex distinction to say that Our Lady is co-mediator, which is what I take co-Redemptrix to mean.

    It was the same Pius XII in the aforementioned docuмent who specified that Mary was the second Eve, and that she was free from all sin, "original or personal." This settled the question for those Protestants who would erroneously say, "Even if I agree with you that Mary was conceived free of Original Sin, she committed sins later on." Pius XII closed the door on this opinion in Mystici Corporis.


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    Online Lazarus

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    Lazarus, your answer is disjointed, but perhaps I did not distinguish well. Mary was conceived free of original sin and never committed even the slightest sin; in fact, she did not have even any moral imperfections. Several saints were born justified, St. John Baptist, most certainly St. Joseph, the prophet Jeremiah, etc.

    Our Lady continued to increase in sanctifying grace by virtue of her baptism and the other sacraments she received, never having lost any of these sacramental graces through sin. Pius XII's Mystici Corporis says that "our Savior as head of the Mystical Body is the 'only mediator of God and men.'" It makes for a very complex distinction to say that Our Lady is co-mediator, which is what I take co-Redemptrix to mean.

    It was the same Pius XII in the aforementioned docuмent who specified that Mary was the second Eve, and that she was free from all sin, "original or personal." This settled the question for those Protestants who would erroneously say, "Even if I agree with you that Mary was conceived free of Original Sin, she committed sins later on." Pius XII closed the door on this opinion in Mystici Corporis.
    My point was answering against the idea that just because someone is born without the original sin, they would not need the sacraments, or that they were unable to sin at all. Our Mother was capable of sin if I understand correctly the doctrine, she simply didn't sin at all during her life through her own choices, which can be considered to be extraordinary because Adam and Eve were not capable of doing so. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    My point was answering against the idea that just because someone is born without the original sin, they would not need the sacraments, or that they were unable to sin at all. 
    Our Lady still needed the sacraments because She was still subject to the Old Law (i.e. purification) and also the Church, post Pentecost.  The protestants reduce everything to grace/sin, which is an error.  Our Lady needed the sacraments because of Church AUTHORITY (i.e. baptism is required for salvation and so is the Eucharist, for adults). This is the part that protestants want to ignore - that Christ created the Church with RULES and even Our Lady needed a Savior (so She says in the Magnificat), even if She didn't need a Redeemer (because She didn't have original sin).

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    Our Mother was capable of sin if I understand correctly the doctrine, she simply didn't sin at all during her life through her own choices, which can be considered to be extraordinary because Adam and Eve were not capable of doing so.
    This is not exactly true.  We have to understand the nature of Adam/Eve, pre-sin.  They were not tempted to lust, or envy, or hate, or any sins related to our fallen nature.  They were only tempted by PRIDE, (similar to the angels) because Adam/Eve's nature was in a perfect state.  Lust, envy, hate, etc are sins whereby the emotions/will rebel against the intellect.  But this was not possible for Adam/Eve because their intellect/reason was IN CONTROL of all their human faculties.  The only way for them to sin was through their intellect/reason, which we call pride.

    In the same way, Our Lady could not sin by way of her lower nature, because Her lower nature was not corrupted.  Therefore satan wouldn't tempt Her in this area; it was off-limits to hell to tempt Our Lady, which is why She is so unique and holy.  And because the only way She could've sinned was through pride (i.e. intellect/reason), and She didn't, this is why the devils hate Her so much, because She is literally, the most-humble person who has ever lived (and the most humble of all creatures COMBINED) because not once did She ever sin through pride, but her humility was constant, perfect and pleasing to God in every way.

    So, yes, in theory Our Lady could've sinned ONLY through pride (but She did not).  But it's incorrect to say that She was tempted to impurity or anger, etc.  Neither was Our Lord tempted to any of these sins, because His passions were ordered and controlled (just like Our Lady's) by reason, as God originally designed Adam/Eve.



    Online Lazarus

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    Our Lady still needed the sacraments because She was still subject to the Old Law (i.e. purification) and also the Church, post Pentecost.  The protestants reduce everything to grace/sin, which is an error.  Our Lady needed the sacraments because of Church AUTHORITY (i.e. baptism is required for salvation and so is the Eucharist, for adults). This is the part that protestants want to ignore - that Christ created the Church with RULES and even Our Lady needed a Savior (so She says in the Magnificat), even if She didn't need a Redeemer (because She didn't have original sin).
    This is not exactly true.  We have to understand the nature of Adam/Eve, pre-sin.  They were not tempted to lust, or envy, or hate, or any sins related to our fallen nature.  They were only tempted by PRIDE, (similar to the angels) because Adam/Eve's nature was in a perfect state.  Lust, envy, hate, etc are sins whereby the emotions/will rebel against the intellect.  But this was not possible for Adam/Eve because their intellect/reason was IN CONTROL of all their human faculties.  The only way for them to sin was through their intellect/reason, which we call pride.

    In the same way, Our Lady could not sin by way of her lower nature, because Her lower nature was not corrupted.  Therefore satan wouldn't tempt Her in this area; it was off-limits to hell to tempt Our Lady, which is why She is so unique and holy.  And because the only way She could've sinned was through pride (i.e. intellect/reason), and She didn't, this is why the devils hate Her so much, because She is literally, the most-humble person who has ever lived (and the most humble of all creatures COMBINED) because not once did She ever sin through pride, but her humility was constant, perfect and pleasing to God in every way.

    So, yes, in theory Our Lady could've sinned ONLY through pride (but She did not).  But it's incorrect to say that She was tempted to impurity or anger, etc.  Neither was Our Lord tempted to any of these sins, because His passions were ordered and controlled (just like Our Lady's) by reason, as God originally designed Adam/Eve.
    What you say makes sense. I don't have any doubts about the dogma, but I would like some clarifications about the cardinal sins. 

    I understand that lust is something the body would feel, or that gluttony is something the body would feel, therefore a human before the original sin would not sin through those. For sloth, similarly, I imagine that is a problem caused by a disordered relationship between the body and will. I can easily imagine that an angel wouldn't feel slothful, since they do not have a body, it would be absurd. 

    However, is that really the case for envy, wrath, and greed? As an example, I think that Adam/Eve didn't merely sin through pride (putting themselves before God), but they also envied God's knowledge of good and evil. Even the most unparalleled intellect of the universe would feel inferior to God, and for someone who values intelligence above all, I can easily imagine wanting God's intellect. For greed, refusing to share wordly possessions with others would be an example, and I do not see how it is related to the imperfect state of the body. For wrath, I'm not sure either. It seems to me even someone with perfect intellect could wish harm on others. 

    Again, about the sin of envy, imagine as an example if our Mother had the thought that she didn't want her son to suffer to such an extent, and would prefer if it were anyone else instead. Of course I think she didn't have the thought (since the Church teachings say so), but was such a thing possible in theory ? 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    As an example, I think that Adam/Eve didn't merely sin through pride (putting themselves before God), but they also envied God's knowledge of good and evil. 
    The devil tempted Adam/Eve to "be like gods" if they ate of the forbidden tree.  Wanting knowledge = pride.  All of the Church Fathers say the sin was pride.

    Online Lazarus

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    The devil tempted Adam/Eve to "be like gods" if they ate of the forbidden tree.  Wanting knowledge = pride.  All of the Church Fathers say the sin was pride.
    It seems to me that desiring more knowledge at any cost is greed, rather than pride. Of course, all cardinal sins are ultimately rooted in pride. 


    Offline Stubborn

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    So, of all the things Trads are focused on, this really is one of the least horrible things the Modernist have done.  I know there's a lot of emotional attachment to Our Lady, but it would not somehow be to dishonor Our Lady if we were to, say, not grant her the title of Fourth Person of the Holy Trinity.  In fact, erroneous titles only dishononr her.

    There were PRE-VATICAN II THEOLOGIANS, approved and respected, cited by the Dimond Brothers, who also said that the title of Co-Redemptrix is problematic, confusing, and potentially mis leading, and "best avoided".
    I never found it confusing, I do not know of any Catholic who finds it confusing. But if so, then simply explain it as one would explain any other doctrine, or titles of Our Blessed Mother. Our Lady of the Smile comes to mind. It should not confuse anyone who sincerely wants to understand it.

    By His passion and death God redeemed us, all the graces necessary to be partakers of His redemption come to us only through Mary, this is why She is the Co-Redemptrix. This is why the crooks in Rome want to take the title away.

    Seems simple enough to me. Not sure what is confusing or misleading about it. 


     
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