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Poll

Which of these groups is in schism from the Body of the Catholic Church?

The SSPX is in schism because they made a deal with new Rome.
3 (11.5%)
The "Resistance" is in schism because they refuse communion with the SSPX.
0 (0%)
The Sedes are in schism because they do not acknowledge the post-conciliar popes as valid.
1 (3.8%)
Sanborn's group (RCI) is in schism because it holds the Thesis.
0 (0%)
The SSPV is in schism because they do not acknowledge the Thuc-line bishops.
0 (0%)
Those outed/banned by CathInfo are in schism because they upset some forum users.
1 (3.8%)
All these groups are in schism.
3 (11.5%)
None of these groups are in schism.
12 (46.2%)
Some of these groups are in schism (please identify which ones).
3 (11.5%)
Other (please explain).
3 (11.5%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?  (Read 30831 times)

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Re: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2025, 05:09:37 PM »
Oh, ok, well to me it seems certain that some of the above groups meet the objective definition of being schismatic. Though I will keep my thoughts to myself about which particular ones for now, as I gather more information on them and the other polls I have been running.

I will point out that people pretending that they are all united in the faith seems somewhat absurd to me. for instance;

The SSPV clergy say you cannot go to Thuc-bishops.

RCI says, "do not come here for sacraments if you are a "feenynite" (same with SSPV).

Resistance is pitched against SSPX, and I would guess that some of their priests would at least be displeased to know their faithful go to SSPX chapels and vice versa.


Dogmatic Non-Una-cuм will not go to ANY Una-cuм Francis Masses as they consider it schism/sacrilege (almost all the Thuc-line bishops tell their faithful NOT to go to Una-cuм-Francis Masses.)

Some SSPX priest say it is ok to go to Indult, some say no. Most Sedes say you cannot go to the Indult.


From what I can tell, the only thing they all have in common is they say you cannot/should not go to the Novus Ordo (minus Bishop Williamson's exceptions).

These are just a few of my thoughts - since you asked...

Thank you for the quick response. You have raised good points, and I'll have to have a think about these before I attempt to reply (if I don't find the time tomorrow, then Friday or Saturday).

God bless.

Offline Gray2023

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2025, 05:15:08 PM »
Oh, ok, well to me it seems certain that some of the above groups meet the objective definition of being schismatic. Though I will keep my thoughts to myself about which particular ones for now, as I gather more information on them and the other polls I have been running.

I will point out that people pretending that they are all united in the faith seems somewhat absurd to me. for instance;

The SSPV clergy say you cannot go to Thuc-bishops.

RCI says, "do not come here for sacraments if you are a "feenynite" (same with SSPV).

Resistance is pitched against SSPX, and I would guess that some of their priests would at least be displeased to know their faithful go to SSPX chapels and vice versa.

Dogmatic Non-Una-cuм will not go to ANY Una-cuм Francis Masses as they consider it schism/sacrilege.

These are just a few of my thoughts - since you asked...

There are two confusing choices right now.

1》 Follow Pope Francis and the Vatican 2 church.

2) Join rhe scattered sheep who don't have a head.

Which do you choose?

Most here choose 2



Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2025, 05:42:50 AM »
There are two confusing choices right now.

1》 Follow Pope Francis and the Vatican 2 church.

2) Join the scattered sheep who don't have a head.

Which do you choose?

Most here choose 2
To me, here the pope is explaining R&R, but I'm interested in finding out what does this mean to you Gray:

1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted. - Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio 1559

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2025, 08:11:48 AM »
Schism can be due to either 1) Refusing subjection/submissoin to and communion with the Holy See or 2) refusing communion with other Catholics.

Per 1 -- If Bergoglio is the Pope, a refusal of submission would constitute schism ... unless the individual entertains some well-founded doubt about the legitimacy of Bergoglio (per the Canonists).  Now, even though some groups hold that Bergoglio is pope, many entertain the possibility that he might not be (we've heard that from +Lefebvre, and even +Williamson and others), at which point, lacking the requisite dogmatic-fact-certainty regarding Bergoglio's papacy, that would absolve someone of schism per those Canonists.  Dogmatic Sedeplenists who refuse submission to and communion with Bergoglio would be schismatic.

Per 2 -- Some Trads dogmatize their conclusions / theories / positions about various subjects that are in fact not dogmatically certain and treat those who do not adhere to their positions as if they were non-Catholics, refusing Communion with them (e.g. priests refusing Sacraments).  By refusing communion with other Catholics, they too can be in schism (if they're wrong about their conclusions, which in most cases they are).  So, for instance, SSPV in treating CMRI and Feeneyites as non-Catholics (refusing them Communion), or the radical Pro-EENS crowd, meaning those who hold that anyone who believes in BoD is a heretic (even if the position is articulated in a way that the Church has tolerated and accepted, e.g. the position of some of the Church Doctors.  There is a distinction, too, where one can argue that a cetain POSITION is objectively heretical, but since the Church has not defined it clearly enough or weighed in on it, they still consider those who adhere to it Catholics, because the Church has not concluded otherwise.  So, for instance, if I were a Thomist priest, I might still argue that Molinism is objectively heretical, but since the Church said we should still consider those who adhere to it Catholic, I would still give Holy Communion to Molinists.  One might HAVE argued before the definition of papal infallibility or the Immaculate Conception, that these were objectively dogmas, but couldn't refuse communion with those who didn't agree with that ... until it was clearly defined by the Church.  In point of fact, they'd be right, since all dogmas were always dogmas, having all been revealed in the Deposit of Faith before the death of the last Apostle (St. John) ... but those who denied them would not be formal heretics (guilty of heresy) until the Church defined it with sufficient clarity to end all doubt and establish the certainty of faith regarding that conclusion.  Consequently, while one might ARGUE that a certain position is OBJECTIVELY heretical, one cannot refuse communion with (or, in the case of priests/bishops, the Sacraments to) those who do not hold your position.

So, many of the "dogmatic" positions, whether dogmatic R&R (while remaining Trad and refusing submmission to Bergoglio), meaning where it's dogmatically certain (dogmatic fact) that Bergoglio is pope, or else dogmatic SVism or dogmatic anti-BoDism, meaning that they'd refuse communion with thoes who disagree with their as-yet-not-defined conclusions ... those would be schismatic.  Unfortunately, many of the Trad positions have been illegitimately elevated to the level of dogma, and I find that there's only one that is a legitimate point of dogmatic contention, namely, the nature of the Church and of the papacy and the Magisterium where it pertains to the indefectibility of the Church.

I'm working on an essay on my Substack entitled "Dogmatic Indefectibilism" to lay all this out.  I actually have a half dozen (or more) essays in various states of completion on there, and have to "pull the trigger" on some of them.  While I can rattle off posts like this in a minute, I tend to be a bit over-perfectionist about the stuff there, trying to make sure they're very polished ... and I think it's a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: What "Trad" groups are Schismatic?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2025, 08:31:12 AM »
But, as per my discussions, "groups" per se aren't schismatic (even if they qualify under the criteria above) unless and until they're declared such by the Church's authority.  So, for instance, there are a few dogmatic R&R in the R&R "groups", but many of them entertain some doubts/questions regarding legitimacy that would absolve them of schism, and the same goes with other groups.  So, short of ADHERING to a declared schismatic group, schism isn't somehow some "social sin".  St. Pius X, for instance, actually gave permission to Catholics living in Orthodox territories where there was no Catholic presence, to receive the Sacraments from the schismatics (provided there was no danger to their faith or potential for scandal).