Author Topic: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church? (Read 39497 times)

Johannes · « **on:** January 24, 2025, 09:11:57 AM »

Can the N.O. clergy "belong" to a false religion while "adhering" to the Catholic Faith without knowing it

We need to separate the various questions to gain more clarity (so for this poll put the whole doubtful/invalid Holy Orders debate out of your mind).

Some have pointed out that a "distinction" should be made between the definition "belong" and "adhere" and that these two terms should not be conflated.

Hopefully this will suffice:

Belong = You identify with the Novus Ordo believing that it is the Catholic Church without fully realizing that it is a false church.

Adhere = You identify with the Novus Ordo fully realizing that it is NOT the Catholic Church, and you choose to adhere to it anyway.

With the above distinctions in mind, let us review what these other polls demonstrate according to voters:

A) The Novus Ordo "church" is NOT the Catholic Church (80% say it is not)

B) Those who belong to the Novus Ordo are NOT members of the Catholic Church (90% )

In summary, these polls ^^^ demonstrate that the majority of voters think that the N.O. is NOT the Catholic Church but a false religion, or sect (80%), and as a Catholic you cannot belong/adhere (depending on how you view that distinction) to any other religion/sect and still be considered a Catholic (90%).

A few considerations:

Some theologians teach:

In brief (and I am paraphrasing), that mystically the Church has a body and a soul.

1) There are those who belong to both the visible body and the soul by profession of the true faith, partaking of the same sacraments, etc. and who live the life of grace.

2) Then there are those who belong only to the body but not the soul, such as reprobates, hardened sinners, etc. who are part of the visible Church, but invisibly they have cut themselves off from the soul due to their mortal sins.

3) Lastly there are those such as catechumens and excommunicates who may belong to the soul of the Church (through faith and charity) but not the body (visible Church). They profess the true faith, but due to their status cannot participate in the sacraments.

So, for this poll, some important considerations include the following line of logic/questioning:

- The Novus Ordo is a false religion/sect.

- Catholics cannot both be members of the true Church and belong to a false religion/sect.

HOW THEN can the N.O. clergy be considered Catholic?
IS it possible for them to hold offices, while NOT belonging to the body, if somehow some of them have still retained membership with the soul/invisible part of the Church?
AND THEN, how would you even know who these supposedly secret/invisible soul member clergy were?

AND LASTLY - DON"T FORGET that all the N.O. clergy explicitly accept/teach Vatican II,
which according to this poll taught heresies or worse:

In Conclusion,
Does God expect us to believe:
that these explicitly affirming/accepting Vatican II heretics,
who belong to a false religion,
but may also at the same time adhere to the Catholic Church invisibly (because the N.O. is NOT the Catholic Church therefore they do not belong to the visible Catholic Church)
can somehow belong to the soul of the Church (even while still retaining their heresies)
and that they are still retaining their offices
and exercise legitimate authority over true Catholics?

Related Polls:

Poll: Can one belong to another religion and still be Catholic?

Poll: What did V2 teach?

Poll: Are heretics members of the Catholic Church?

Poll: What is the N.O. church?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2025, 09:44:09 AM »

So, once again I can't vote ...

Quote

Yes, they belong to the N.O. & adhere to the Catholic Church & they do hold office.

I believe that they CAN belong to the NO, adhere to the Catholic Church, and hold office, but most probably do not, since they are manifest heretics.

So, in the case of a non-(pertinacious formal manifest) heretic [agreeing with your definition of those who merely "belong" to it] with valid Holy Orders (at least for some episcopal functions), e.g. as in the Eastern Rites, I believe that can and do hold office, either by the principles of sedeprivationism or else the "color of title" principle that some SVs have cited from theologians, where those in lower office can still receive jurisdiction from even an Antipope due to "color of title".

I believe that few meet these criteria, most notably some Eastern Rite bishops. There are a few Roman Rite ones who are not pertinacious heretics, but they have dubious orders, and therefore can do little more than make appointments and serve as a conduit for the jurisdiction priests require to confect the Sacraments.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2025, 09:46:21 AM »

Quote from: Johannes on January 24, 2025, 09:11:57 AM

Adhere = You identify with the Novus Ordo fully realizing that it is NOT the Catholic Church, and you choose to adhere to it anyway.

I believe you can ADHERE to the Novus Ordo in the sense of pertinaciously embracing the various V2 heresies and errors, even if on don't explicitly think, "Ah, this is not the Catholic Church." Modernists, for instance, do believe it's the "Catholic Church", but they believe in a Church that can change as it did at Vatican II. So I think this definition requires a bit more nuance and distinction.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2025, 09:50:33 AM »

Quote from: Johannes on January 24, 2025, 09:47:48 AM

You just vote "other" and you have explained yourself.

Yeah, it's just that my opinion is so close to the first, and the suggestion is to change the answer to where NO hierarchs CAN hold office/jurisdiction in the Church, rather than make it an all-or-nothing "do or do not".

WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2025, 10:01:14 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2025, 09:44:09 AM

So, once again I can't vote ...
I believe that they CAN belong to the NO, adhere to the Catholic Church, and hold office, but most probably do not, since they are manifest heretics.

So, in the case of a non-(pertinacious formal manifest) heretic [agreeing with your definition of those who merely "belong" to it] with valid Holy Orders (at least for some episcopal functions), e.g. as in the Eastern Rites, I believe that can and do hold office, either by the principles of sedeprivationism or else the "color of title" principle that some SVs have cited from theologians, where those in lower office can still receive jurisdiction from even an Antipope due to "color of title".

I believe that few meet these criteria, most notably some Eastern Rite bishops. There are a few Roman Rite ones who are not pertinacious heretics, but they have dubious orders, and therefore can do little more than make appointments and serve as a conduit for the jurisdiction priests require to confect the Sacraments.

So, in a nutshell, you're basically saying I can go to the nearest Novus Ordo chapel for confession and be validly absolved of my sins as long as the priest is not a manifest heretic?

CathInfo.com

Poll

Do the N.O. clergy hold office in the Catholic Church? If so, how is that possible?

Author Topic: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church? (Read 39497 times)

Johannes

Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church?

Ladislaus

Re: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church?

Ladislaus

Re: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church?

Ladislaus

Re: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church?

WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

Re: Poll: Do the Novus Ordo clergy hold legitimate office in the Catholic Church?