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Poll

Can the Pope teach error(s) in his official acts to the Universal Church?

Yes - he can teach previously condemned error(s) to the UC.
Yes - he can teach all manner of condemned error(s) and even propagate new one(s) to the UC
Yes - the pope can be an antichrist, anything goes!
No - he cannot teach previously condemned error(s), but he can teach new error(s) to the UC.
No - he cannot teach condemned error(s) in his official acts to the UC.
No - he cannot teach error(s) of any kind in his official acts to the UC.
May you be infested with the flees off the back of 1000 camels!

Author Topic: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?  (Read 83301 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2024, 11:28:17 PM »
1. “To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (July 29, 1976, Reflections on the Suspension a divinis)

The above quote does not prove that +ABL believed as you do; not does it prove that he believed as Ladislaus does. 

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2024, 05:12:22 AM »
Laws change, based on the needs of the Church - the highest law is the salvation of souls. If the mechanism to perform some law no longer exists in actuality or has been replaced or superseded for some reason - the Church knows how to adjust her fire and still hit the target, because, ultimately, Christ is calling the shots, and He never misses.
Of course, laws may change when they are actually changed by the proper authority, until then they are the law established for the purpose of serving the highest law, which indeed is the salvation of souls. But we do not have the authority and are not in any position to simply ignore the established laws if they disagree with our opinion, and the idea that popes are not popes is nothing more than your opinion.

Are you able to admit that sedeism is only your opinion? 

On the one hand, you quoted a pope teaching that Christ and the pope are one head, OTOH, you ignore the law that that 'one head' mandated for papal elections. Meanwhile you say that it's "Christ [who] is calling the shots, and He never misses," while ignoring the law ("the shot He called") on how He willed that popes get elected. Why do you not see that if you're right, "He missed on this one."


Offline Meg

Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2024, 09:36:26 AM »
1. “To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (July 29, 1976, Reflections on the Suspension a divinis)

Notice that in the above quote, +ABL refers to the pope as the pope. He doesn't say that the chair is empty. And, to say that those who follow the new church separate themselves from the Catholic church, does not mean that +ABL is saying what you are saying. He doesn't accuse them of heresy and condemn them. He did not view the situation in the same way that you and Ladislaus do. 

Here are a few paragraphs from the last book written by +ABL, called, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics," page 175:

quote:

"I have not ceased repeating that if anyone separates himself from the Pope, it will not be I. The question comes down to this: the power of the Pope within the Church is supreme, but not absolute and limitless, because it is subordinate to the Divine authority which is expressed in Tradition, Holy Scripture, and the definitions already promulgated by the Church's magisterium. In fact, the limits of papal power are set by the ends for which it was given to Christ's Vicar on earth, ends which Pius IX clearly defined in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus of the First Vatican Council. So in saying this, I am not expressing a personal theory.

Blind obedience is not Catholic; nobody is exempt from the responsibility for having obeyed man rather than God if he accepts orders from a higher authority, even the Pope, when these are contrary to the Will of God as it is known with certainty from Tradition. It is true that one cannot envisage such an eventuality when the papal authority is engaged; but this happens only in a limited number of cases. It is an error to think that every word uttered by the Pope is infallible."

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2024, 10:46:47 AM »
By "sedeism" I assume you mean the logical conclusion that one forms based on sound Catholic teaching that currently the Chair of Peter is vacant....
 So, no - I will not admit that the Chair of Peter being currently vacant is just "my opinion", rather it is my belief, otherwise, I would not have the conviction to act upon it if it were mere opinion.
Ok, well, you've chosen to make your conclusion your belief, based on what you opine is "the logical conclusion." What you are saying is you've made your opinion a de fide doctrine and you're not only fine with that, you live by it. At least you're not lukewarm.

Quote
A pope may make an ecclesiastical law on how to elect his successor, if that law cannot be observed because the mechanism to use for following it no longer exists, then the Church must still have a way to elect a successor to the Seat of Peter in keeping with the Divine Constitution of the Church laid down by Christ. She does and always will.
Well, the popes have made laws mandating how to elect their successors, and to date, that law has only been abrogated by opinions of some priests and lay people. Beyond that, that law is still in effect for all Catholics apparently except for those few.
Quote
You keep conflating ecclesiastical laws with Divine laws. On the other hand, it is of Divine law (and ecclesiastical law, cuм Ex, Canon Law, etc.) that heretics do not belong to the Body of the Church.
I'm not conflating anything, you misunderstand what is meant by "Christ and the pope are one head." If it means what you believe it means, then everything popes do, Christ does, ergo, everything Christ does, popes do. But out of necessity to maintain your starting point, you say this does not apply to ecclesiastical law, specifically, this does not apply to the laws on papal elections. Imagine believing this and at the same time, of all things, the papal laws established on the election of popes being mandated with only one head, i.e. without Christ. This is your conclusion on such an important event that will effect the whole Church and hundreds of millions of souls, possibly for many decades is done without Christ?

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2024, 03:30:37 PM »
Yes, and they also made laws and pronouncements that heretics cannot hold any offices - which are based on Divine law and cannot be abrogated. Purely ecclesiastical laws can be abrogated or dispensed from if the means to follow them are not attainable.
I agree, but there are some things priests and lay people cannot do, one of those things is we cannot abrogate  the laws on papal elections. Although you need to disagree in order to maintain a vacant chair, the rest of the Church, thankfully, cannot do that because first, there is no reason to do that and second, because we are forbidden from doing that.

Quote
Weeeeeeeeeeeee round and round we go hurrrraayyyyyy!

So, I was wondering how long it would take us to come here... You NEED "hundreds of millions of souls" to be saved. This is your underlying reason for what you are doing.
Well, we keep going around because you keep avoiding and redirecting into circular, absurd arguments the points I am making - the bolded is the latest example of this.

Your opinion-turned-conclusion-turned de fide doctrine effects the whole Church. The whole Church consists of 100s of millions of souls, does it not? If your understanding of the "two are one head" is true, then Christ is just as guilty as the conciliar popes of scandalizing those hundreds of millions of souls who are all NO. 

That's point I was making, you ignored that point and redirected it to the absurd accusation that I "NEED hundreds of millions of souls to be saved."