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Poll

Can the Pope teach error(s) in his official acts to the Universal Church?

Yes - he can teach previously condemned error(s) to the UC.
Yes - he can teach all manner of condemned error(s) and even propagate new one(s) to the UC
Yes - the pope can be an antichrist, anything goes!
No - he cannot teach previously condemned error(s), but he can teach new error(s) to the UC.
No - he cannot teach condemned error(s) in his official acts to the UC.
No - he cannot teach error(s) of any kind in his official acts to the UC.
May you be infested with the flees off the back of 1000 camels!

Author Topic: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?  (Read 83322 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2024, 05:11:39 AM »
Irrelevant, you are doing the same thing with your "dogmatic certainty" when you state that an "uncatholic heretic" can be the pope!

Only the Truth has rights, so either:
1)  I am wrong, and you are right.
2) You are wrong, and I am right.
3) We are both wrong.
I would not say the conciliar popes have been uncatholic, I would say they've been anti-Catholic.

Well, the truth is that all the conciliar popes have been elected the same way for about the last 1000 years, via the college of cardinals. What this means is that because all of the cardinals who elected them have accepted them as popes, that we must also. This makes me right and you wrong.


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You are the one who is dissenting from what the ordinary and infallible magisterium of the Church has always taught about what makes one a member of the Church and what excludes one from membership. You seem to be hung up on how someone who was a Catholic can fall outside the Church due to "apostasy, heresy, or schism" (Pius XII), but then subsequently, due to true penance for their sin of heresy - that they confess - then can be brought back into the membership of the Church. Either you are extremely ignorant, or malicious on this point. I assume it is the first.
No, in order to suit your opinion you have adulterated what the Church teaches here. They are not "brought back into membership of the Church" through confession because non-Catholics cannot go to confession at all, I'm sure you know this but I will remind you now that the sacrament of penance is only for members of the Church, hence, nobody who is outside of the Church can go to confession at all.



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Trent Chapter VII
On the Reservation of Cases

..."But it is consonant [in agreement] to the divine authority, that this reservation of cases have effect, not merely in external polity, but also in God's sight. Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavor, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."
I could go on and indisputably refute your misguided, misunderstanding of the catechisms and quotes you provided, but maybe if you concede the reason you're hell bent on your wrong idea is due to sedeism, and concentrate on what I said above, in time it will become clearer to you that one who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments.
The  excommunicated heretic, schismatic and apostate Catholic can receive the Sacrament of Penance, whereby the censure can be removed, and the sin be forgiven. The Church first removes the censure, then forgives the sin. The heretic or excommunicated Catholic is in a more serious moral depression than the Catholic who is in the state of sin only. But  neither is in the woeful condition of those who are outside the Church.


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I hope you have a Merry Christmas, and the Christ Child blesses you abundantly!
Thank you! And I wish you and yours the same!

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2024, 06:12:25 AM »
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Fascinating...So, you do believe a legitimate pope can be antichrist! To say that someone is "anti-Catholic" is the equivalent of saying they are antichrist. You believe that the pope can be antichrist - perhaps not THE Antichrist, but AN antichrist. Christ and the pope make One Head of the Church not two and you say the Head can be both Christ and antichrist You are saying they can be Catholic & anticatholic at the same time 2+2=5/A=NOT A.
Christ is the head of the Church, Christ and the Church are one. As Christ's vicar, the pope is only second in command, But Christ and the pope are not one. Christ and the Church are one, the pope is not the Church, hence Christ and the pope are two, not one. The two make one head only when the pope speaks ex cathedra.

Beyond that, the pope is not impeccable, there is not a single sin that the pope cannot commit, here we are talking about the sin of heresy that the pope is not immune to committing - except when he speaks ex cathedra.

In order to meet your objective, you are making the pope both impeccable and the Church, then, by Divine design, because he is neither, you are using his lack thereof against various laws and teachings of the Church, the law of papal elections and the dogma of papal infallibility to name only two - not good.


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So, what if the cardinals have elected popes for 1000 years? How were they elected for the first 1000 years before that? You already admitted that papal elections via the college of cardinals is not de fide. All that is necessary is the Church must have a way to elect a pope - even lay people could do this if that is what the situation required. The men you say are cardinals are all heretics and were incapable of assuming any office whatsoever. Antichrist cannot rule over Christ. Heretics cannot spiritually rule over the faithful. This was all clearly referenced above under the "Delict of Heresy", cuм Ex, etc. This makes me right and you wrong.
Here what you are doing is destroying the established traditions and laws on papal elections of the past 1000 years which were established by successive popes. Do you believe these popes were popes? Do you believe these popes lacked the authority and that lay people and priests can just ignore them in a crisis?

The thing is, perhaps you don't even realize it, but the only reason you do this is for no other reason than to maintain your opinion that  popes cannot be popes when they are heretics. You do not realize that in so doing, you are following the example  of what conciliar popes have done, namely, blatant disregard of established traditions and laws in order to meet their objective. While there may be two different objectives involved, the results would be the same - another new church.


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I will ask some questions:

1) Do you believe that being a member of the Church is the same thing as belonging to the Body of the Church?

2) Do you believe that someone being "severed from the Body of the Church" results in them being "outside the Church"?
1) Yes, of course.
2) Yes and no, allow me to explain.
We all know what PPXII said, we also know that nobody outside of the Church can receive the sacraments. Penitent Catholics who have fallen into the sins of heresy, apostacy or schism, in virtue of their ability to receive the sacraments of penance and extreme unction, proves that they are still members, not outside of the Church. We cannot simply ignore this truth like you are wont to ignore the laws of papal elections as a means to meet your objective.

In the Church's infinite wisdom, Trent's catechism likens these sinners to deserters from the army, which is the best possible comparison/example I think is possible to explain that while 1) yes, they've severed themselves from the Church, 2), it's not the other way around - which is how that sentence is typically misunderstood.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2024, 10:58:00 AM »
We see in this debate a false dilemma or false dichotomy.  Because (many) R&R cling to the position that the Magisterium can become thoroughly corrupt ... with the exception only of those once-or-twice-per-century dogmatic definitions, the SVs have overreacted by exaggerating the limits and scope of infallibility to the (absurd) opposite extreme where a pope is infallible every time he passes wind, to extents that no theologian between Vatican I and Vatican II ever held.  As is nearly always true, the truth is in the middle.  I recommend Msgr. Fenton's essay on the infallibility of papal encyclicals for the Catholic balance.

This debate is at the wrong level, at the level of infallibility, whereas the issue here is indefectibility.

So, because those teachings that do not meet the notes of papal infallibility (as taught by Vatican I) can, strinctly speaking, be in error, this does not mean that there isn't a higher-level or broader protection of the Holy Spirit over the Magisterium.  R&R wrongly argue that if you can have 1 error, then you can have 1000 errors, or 10000 errors ... i.e. that this is merely a difference in degree.  That is false, and the clear litmus test for when it's "gone too far", so that it undermines the indefectibility of the Church, is when the Magisterial error has gone so far that Catholics not only are permitted but even obliged in conscience to separate themselves from communion with and subjection to the hierarchy in order to protect the Catholic faith.  At that point, the Church has defected, and (many) R&R clearly hold that the Church and the Magisterium can defect to this degree.  This does not mean that every word of a long, rambling, 2-hour speech to a group of midwives is, for all intents and purposes, no different than a solemn dogmatic definition and must be considered infallible (as many SVs ridiculously hold).  In fact, I've run into some SVs that go even to MORE absurd lengths, holding that every opinion of a Doctor of the Church is effectively infallible (since the Church endorsed their teaching) and (in one case) that books that have receved "imprimatur" and "nihil obstat" decisions are to be considered inerrant and binding.  Both extremes are in error, but the one where the Church's Magisterium can defect is not Catholic and is heretical.  R&R hide behind +Lefebvre, but +Lefebvre did not in fact hold this.

Offline Meg

Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2024, 11:08:34 AM »
Both extremes are in error, but the one where the Church's Magisterium can defect is not Catholic and is heretical.  R&R hide behind +Lefebvre, but +Lefebvre did not in fact hold this.

And yet Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX was never, ever any brand of sedevacantist, even when the Archbishop was alive. You have not been truthful about what +ABL believed, and I have shown this in the past. I respect your opinions on several subjects other than sedevacantism, but you are wrong about this issue. 

There are many traditional Catholics who do not, and have not ever held to your opinions on the subject. It's the same with the opinion of Johannes. 

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2024, 11:33:43 AM »
And yet Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX was never, ever any brand of sedevacantist, even when the Archbishop was alive. You have not been truthful about what +ABL believed, and I have shown this in the past. I respect your opinions on several subjects other than sedevacantism, but you are wrong about this issue.

There are many traditional Catholics who do not, and have not ever held to your opinions on the subject. It's the same with the opinion of Johannes.

False dichotomy.  While +Levebre never officially embraced sedevacantism (though at one point hinted that he was privately inclined that way), he did not hold the R&R error that the Papacy, protected by the Holy Spirit, can wreck the Church to this degree. He merely felt (rightly so) that there were lack of requisite certainty regarding the minor of the SV conclusion to definitively (publicly/officially) go with it.

Both sides don't actually consider the entire SV syllogism, with the dogmatic SVs holding that the conclusion is dogmatic merely because one premise is, with (many) modern R&R rejecting the major of the syllogism that actually IS dogmatic, and therefore involving themselves in heresy.

But this is here is why I stopped participating in debates/arguments on CathInfo, individuals like yourself who wouldn't understand a nuance or distinction if it hit them in the face and then pontificating heretical statements as if they were Catholic teaching.