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Poll

Can the Pope teach error(s) in his official acts to the Universal Church?

Yes - he can teach previously condemned error(s) to the UC.
Yes - he can teach all manner of condemned error(s) and even propagate new one(s) to the UC
Yes - the pope can be an antichrist, anything goes!
No - he cannot teach previously condemned error(s), but he can teach new error(s) to the UC.
No - he cannot teach condemned error(s) in his official acts to the UC.
No - he cannot teach error(s) of any kind in his official acts to the UC.
May you be infested with the flees off the back of 1000 camels!
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Offline Johannes

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Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« on: November 25, 2024, 10:21:38 AM »
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    • Another "pay-to-play" poll (no peaking at results until you vote, though I set it up so people could change their vote if they should choose to).

    * In this poll "errors" means/= errors against faith or morals only. *

    Some sources to consider, feel free to add your own and drop comments/arguments below.



    Source: ^^ Lesson IV.—Infallibility of the Pope http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm#P1Liv






















    Source: ^^ https://archive.org/details/vannoortvol2christschurch/page/n159/mode/2up
    # 177 -181







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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #1 on: November 25, 2024, 10:42:25 AM »
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    • You really like polls.  I like them, too, because it gives you a picture of what the audience looks like.  I also like that you add a little humor as one of your choices.  Just thought I would say it out loud because I have been thinking this over the past couple polls.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #2 on: November 25, 2024, 11:09:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:02:09 AM
    I am not interested in arguing ad nauseum with the same 2- 3 people here about these topics.

    I am interested in the general consensus among the vocal members of this forum concerning their understanding - kind of a mini poll of the sensus fidelium on these topics. It is 1 factor among many to consider.


    So you are trying to determine as to whether or not the forum members are actually Catholic? Is that why it is a poll of the sensus fidelium to your topics? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #3 on: November 25, 2024, 11:25:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:24:11 AM
    Polls speak for themselves. Each person speaks for themself when they vote/comment. You only speak for yourself, not the forum.

    I will give you an answer, but 1st you have to answer my question.

    Do you think Francis is a Catholic and your Holy Father, the Pope?

    So you want to know my opinion, so you can determine whether I am Catholic or not? 

    We are allowed, on this forum, to believe that Francis is the Pope. Are you aware of that?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #4 on: November 25, 2024, 11:31:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:28:43 AM
    conjecture... :confused:

    suspicion... :confused:

    evasion...

     I will give an answer to your 1st question, but you have to answer mine first;

    Do you think Francis is a Catholic and your Holy Father, the Pope?

    last chance...or I no more play with you.

    still waiting...

    I do think that Francis is the Pope. The laity are not required to make a judgment of the pope in that regard. As to his being Catholic or not, I leave that the future Popes to determine. Again, not my job to decide the Catholicity of the Pope. Not is it yours. We do not follow the errors/heresies of popes who teach them. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #5 on: November 25, 2024, 11:33:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:32:28 AM
    Ok, you answered - thank you.

    So, it's your turn. Are you trying to determine as to whether or not the forum members here are Catholic?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #6 on: November 25, 2024, 11:37:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:32:28 AM
    Ok, you answered - thank you.





    Now I said I would give you an answer, right?









    Here is AN answer....








    ASK YOUR HOLY FATHER! :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:






    You lied. Not that I'm surprised. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #7 on: November 25, 2024, 12:05:59 PM »
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    • Meg, how do you go from

    Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:02:09 AM
    I am not interested in arguing ad nauseum with the same 2- 3 people here about these topics.

    I am interested in the general consensus among the vocal members of this forum concerning their understanding - kind of a mini poll of the sensus fidelium on these topics. It is 1 factor among many to consider.
    to

    Quote from: Meg on November 25, 2024, 11:09:39 AM

    So you are trying to determine as to whether or not the forum members are actually Catholic? Is that why it is a poll of the sensus fidelium to your topics?

    I don't understand the connection.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #8 on: November 25, 2024, 12:32:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:42:25 AM
    A question asked, and AN answer given. :fryingpan:

    An answer was not given to my question. You lied. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #9 on: November 25, 2024, 12:49:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 11:02:09 AM
    I am not interested in arguing ad nauseum with the same 2- 3 people here about these topics.

    I am interested in the general consensus among the vocal members of this forum concerning their understanding - kind of a mini poll of the sensus fidelium on these topics. It is 1 factor among many to consider.
    So, is this purely out of curiosity as to where the CI membership stands on the various matters? 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #10 on: November 25, 2024, 01:04:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 01:00:00 PM
    Wrong.

    I never said I would "answer your "specific" question". Your question is stupid.


    I said I would give you "an" answer to your question". you must work harder at reading comprehension. I gave you an answer, just not the one you wanted.

    You may continue to falsely accuse and culminate me though - thank you & God bless you.




    When asked in a recent interview, if he would meet with Francis, Bishop Williamson responded, "No." Then he followed with an old Confucian saying that I will leave you to listen for yourself. I respond to you with the same. 


    starts @1:32:46














    P.S.










    "That beast of the apocalypse, to whom is given a mouth speaking blasphemies, and to make war with the saints, is sitting on the throne of Peter, like a lion ready for his prey."

    St. Bernard - ora pro nobis





    Isn't English your first language? If it is, then you should know that you said you would answer my question. You're a liar.



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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #11 on: November 25, 2024, 02:14:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 02:02:49 PM
    You have also said very well that a characteristic of the priests of the Apostolic Union and their particular uniform must be, and is, in fact, love for the Pope, and this too will contribute admirably to your sanctification. To love him, it is enough to reflect on who the Pope is:
    The Pope is the guardian of dogma and morality; he is the depository of the principles that make the family honest, the nations great, the souls holy; he is the counsellor of princes and peoples; it is the head under which no one feels tyrannized, because it represents God himself; He is the Father par excellence who brings together in himself everything that can be loving, tender, divine.
    It seems incredible, and it is painful to do, that there are priests to whom I have to make this recommendation, but unfortunately we are in our day in this hard, unhappy condition of having to say to priests: love the Pope!
    And how should we love the Pope? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. When you love a person, you try to conform to his thoughts in everything, to carry out his wishes, to interpret his desires. And if our Lord Jesus Christ said of himself: si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit, so to show our love for the Pope it is necessary to obey him.
    Therefore when one loves the Pope, there is no discussion about what He disposes or demands, or how far obedience should go, and in what things one should obey; when one loves the Pope, it is not said that he has not spoken clearly enough, as if he were obliged to repeat in the ear of each one that will clearly expressed so many times, not only orally, but in letters and other public docuмents; his orders are not questioned, adducing the easy pretext of those who do not want to obey, that it is not the Pope who commands, but those around him; the field in which he can and should exercise his authority is not limited; the authority of the Pope is not put before that of other persons, however learned they may disagree with the Pope, who if they are learned are not saints, because he who is holy cannot disagree with the Pope.
    This is the outpouring of a sorrowful heart, which I make with deep bitterness not for you, beloved brethren, but with you to deplore the conduct of so many priests, who not only allow themselves to discuss and scrutinize the Pope's wishes, but are not ashamed to arrive at impudent and brazen disobedience with so much scandal of the good and with so much ruin of souls.
    This lament is not provoked (I repeat) by you, beloved confreres, who, observing the rules of the Union, solemnly profess your respect, your affection, your piety towards the Pope. - May God keep you in these holy purposes and comfort you with his blessing; that blessing that I invoke upon you, upon your confreres, upon your families, upon the people all dear to you and whom you have in mind, so that it may be for everyone. bringing every consolation.


    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x/it/speeches/docuмents/hf_p-x_spe_19121118_unione-apostolica.html

    Do you love the Pope? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #12 on: November 25, 2024, 02:58:25 PM »
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    • I take it that you don't love the Pope. But what about the address of Pope St. Pius X to priests of the Apostolic Union?

    Notice that the address is to priests, and not to the laity. The Apostolic Union was a group of secular priests, and St. Pius X took them under his special protection. I don't know if they still exist. It wasn't an address to the laity, like many of Francis' addresses are. Perhaps you are under the impression that papal address are directed mainly to the laity. But that's not traditionally how it works. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #13 on: November 25, 2024, 03:21:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 01:06:49 PM
    No.

    "pure curiosity" is vain.

    For me it is practical. It is practical to ask what other Catholics think about these things, it helps our understanding to grow when we ask questions, both of ourselves and others.
    OK.  So did you have a position that you are arguing for?  Did you say which position you hold? :confused:
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #14 on: November 25, 2024, 04:07:27 PM »
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    • We can't guess your answer.

    It feels like you are talking in riddles.  Couldn't you just articulate where you stand?
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