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Poll

Can the Pope teach error(s) in his official acts to the Universal Church?

Yes - he can teach previously condemned error(s) to the UC.
Yes - he can teach all manner of condemned error(s) and even propagate new one(s) to the UC
Yes - the pope can be an antichrist, anything goes!
No - he cannot teach previously condemned error(s), but he can teach new error(s) to the UC.
No - he cannot teach condemned error(s) in his official acts to the UC.
No - he cannot teach error(s) of any kind in his official acts to the UC.
May you be infested with the flees off the back of 1000 camels!

Author Topic: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?  (Read 83273 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2024, 02:59:49 PM »
I don't know if this makes any difference, I haven't read the whole thread, but is there a difference between

none can be excluded

&

all must be included
Just use basic Catholic theology, there is nothing complicated whatsoever in all of this.

The law says that none can be excluded for the reason Johannes insist they *all* must be excluded. IOW, he is saying they're excluded on the pretext of them being excommunicated heretics - which is exactly contrary to the law.

It does not say "all must be included" because what if one or more of them are sick or dying or otherwise too weak to travel, or some other valid reason that they cannot make it?

The point is, Johannes insists the excommunicated, suspended, interdicted, or those who may be under whatever censure, are outside of the Church and on that account cannot vote validly. Again, this is essentially a word for word contradiction of the law.....so he sticks with wanting to insist it's all about my concern (which I do not have) of the "100s of millions" I mentioned. Remember, he considers his opinion that there is no pope to be a de fide doctrine of the Church.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2024, 03:04:17 PM »
To save myself the time I will just reproduce the rebuttal in full for you here:
ANSWER:  As we’ve already shown, it’s a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church; and 2) that a pope is the head of the Church.  It is a dogmatic fact, therefore, that a heretic cannot be the head of the Church, since he is not a member of it.
What, then, does Pope Pius XII mean in Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis?  First off, one needs to understand that excommunication can be incurred for many things.  Historically, excommunications were distinguished by the terms major and minor.  Major excommunications were incurred for heresy and schism (sins against the faith) and certain other major sins.  Those who received major excommunication for heresy were not members of the Church (as we have just proven at length).  Minor excommunication, however, did not remove one from the Church, but forbade one to participate in the Church's sacramental life.  Pope Benedict XIV made note of the distinction.Minor excommunication, on the other hand, was incurred for things such as violating a secret of the Holy Office, falsifying relics (c. 2326), violating a cloister (c. 2342), etc.  These are all ecclesiastical or Church penalties.  Such actions, though gravely sinful, did not separate a person from the Church.  And though the terms major and minor excommunication are no longer used, it remains a fact that a person could incur an excommunication (for something other than heresy) which would not separate him from the Church, and he could incur an excommunication for heresy which would separate him from the Church.
Therefore, a cardinal who receives an excommunication for heresy is no longer a cardinal because heretics are outside the Catholic Church (de fide, Pope Eugene IV).  But a cardinal who receives an excommunication for something else is still a cardinal, though in a state of grave sin.  So when Pope Pius XII says that all cardinals, whatever ecclesiastical impediment they are under, can vote and be elected in a Papal conclave, this presupposes cardinals who have received an excommunication for something other than heresy, since a cardinal who has received an excommunication for heresy is not a cardinal at all.  The key point to understand is that heresy is not merely an ecclesiastical impediment – thus it is not what Pius XII is talking about – but an impediment by divine law. Notice, heretics are not excluded from the Papacy by merely ecclesiastical impediments, but impediments flowing from the divine law.  Pius XII’s legislation doesn’t apply to heresy because he was speaking about ecclesiastical impediments: “…or any other ecclesiastical impediment…”.  Thus, his legislation does not show that heretics can be elected and remain popes, which is why he didn’t mention heretics.  Pope Pius XII was referring to Catholic cardinals who may have been under excommunication.
To further prove the point, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Pope Pius XII’s legislation did mean that a heretical cardinal could be elected pope.  Notice what Pius XII says:Pius XII says that the excommunication is suspended only for the time of the election; at other times it remains in vigor.  This would mean that the excommunication for heresy would fall back into force immediately after the election and then the heretic who had been elected pope would lose his office!  Thus, no matter what way you look at it, a heretic could not be validly elected and remain pope.If a heretic (one who denies the faith) could be the head inside the Church, then the dogma that the Church is one in faith (as in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic) would be false.


Now, look here:

The Divine Will and Intelligence is not directing every single thing a pope does - absurd! The pope is not a human shell through whom Christ is reincarnate - I assume you know this. In ecclesiastical laws, Christ gave the papacy full autonomy "whatever you bind is bound...loose is loosed". But no one on earth has the power to go against Divine law - not even a pope. One can be excommunicated for many things other than heresy, that is why when basic catechisms speak of who DOES NOT belong to the Church it lists heretics and excommunicates separately. Heresy is the sin the "Severs from the Body" (you have no way of avoiding this). Even a child with 2nd grade reading skills can see and understand this. It is of Divine law that heretics do not belong to the Church and therefore cannot hold any offices. See how this basic Divine law shatters your whole argument? Christ gives a true pope supreme authority over the faithful and he has much leeway to do as he sees fit in the Church and he can even misjudge others, act imprudently, rashly, disrespectfully, and be an enormous personal sinner. What a pope cannot do is lose the faith and teach heresy in words/deeds. For so by doing, he would be manifesting public heresy - and proving he is not even a member of the Church and "obviously, anyone who is not a member of the Church cannot rule over Her." (Van Noort). 

The bolded portion of your quote above translates to, " Your conclusion seems really bad for lots of people, so it must be false!!!" This is of course all stemming from a compassionate root, but it is a false compassion based not on the Divine law and truths of the faith, but based on a human understanding and placing limits on what God will allow and what He wills.
 
Just how many people do you believe (roughly speaking) are part of the Church Militant on earth and please list the reason you think the number you produce are part of the Catholic Church (what makes them a member).

I've refuted all of this more than once in this thread, I see no point in us continuing it, thanks for the convo and God Bless you.


Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2024, 10:15:05 PM »
Why is infallibility attributed to +ABL? No one ever wants to admit he could have be wrong.

Let's face it, he was all over the place when it came to how JP2 could do what he was doing. +ABL went from JP2 being a public heretic and can't be the Pope to he's the Pope and we have to sift.

Let's use teachings of popes and councils as the litmus test...not +ABL.

Oh wait, the popes are wrong and +ABL isn't. /s

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2024, 06:09:59 AM »
Why is infallibility attributed to +ABL? No one ever wants to admit he could have be wrong.

Let's face it, he was all over the place when it came to how JP2 could do what he was doing. +ABL went from JP2 being a public heretic and can't be the Pope to he's the Pope and we have to sift.

Let's use teachings of popes and councils as the litmus test...not +ABL.

Oh wait, the popes are wrong and +ABL isn't. /s
I dunno, I've been watching the whole sede conundrum play out since the 70s, so I can say with certainty that most of the exact same arguments that are going on today have been around since at least then, the same arguments are repeated over and over and over again, it's the same old thing but with different players. 

Anyway, I attached a short clip from Pete Dimond, in this clip, he is speaking what Catholics have always believed.

Offline Meg

Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2024, 10:59:37 PM »
Why is infallibility attributed to +ABL? No one ever wants to admit he could have be wrong.

Let's face it, he was all over the place when it came to how JP2 could do what he was doing. +ABL went from JP2 being a public heretic and can't be the Pope to he's the Pope and we have to sift.

Let's use teachings of popes and councils as the litmus test...not +ABL.

Oh wait, the popes are wrong and +ABL isn't. /s

Who on this forum has ever said that +ABL was infallible? That's a ridiculous thing to say.