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Poll

Can the Pope teach error(s) in his official acts to the Universal Church?

Yes - he can teach previously condemned error(s) to the UC.
Yes - he can teach all manner of condemned error(s) and even propagate new one(s) to the UC
Yes - the pope can be an antichrist, anything goes!
No - he cannot teach previously condemned error(s), but he can teach new error(s) to the UC.
No - he cannot teach condemned error(s) in his official acts to the UC.
No - he cannot teach error(s) of any kind in his official acts to the UC.
May you be infested with the flees off the back of 1000 camels!
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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2024, 04:52:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on November 25, 2024, 04:07:27 PM
    We can't guess your answer.

    It feels like you are talking in riddles.  Couldn't you just articulate where you stand?
    More and more I think Johannes is just playing games here.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #16 on: November 25, 2024, 04:58:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 04:55:06 PM
    I only "play games" with silly women :jester:. But my point to Grey above is no game.
    And I think time will prove you're playing here.;)
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #17 on: November 25, 2024, 05:06:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 04:48:24 PM
    You don't have to guess, and it is not a riddle. Think of it more like questing for Truth.

    It is a historical fact that you are looking for (or the absence of one).

    Read: #188-193 of Van Noort: https://archive.org/details/vannoortvol2christschurch/page/n163/mode/2up

    T    he question: Has any legitimate pope prior to John XXIII taught error(s) about faith or morals to the Universal Church in his official magisterium? -Is an important one.

    I could simply tell you where I stand (which is irrelevant and means nothing), or I can point you to the historical proofs (or lack thereof) which speak for themselves.
    Well here is the thing.  I don't understand your purpose.  Is it to ensnare me in a trap?  You ask the question which you yourself won't answer.

    My answer to the above question, though I am nobody and my answer does not matter, is this "I don't think so, but I have not analyzed all 2000 years of popes myself and I have to trust the writings of others."

    Now what?
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #18 on: November 25, 2024, 05:31:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 25, 2024, 04:52:23 PM
    More and more I think Johannes is just playing games here.
    Well I think he is trying to get people to understand the situation of the Church with these questions, but it is not really getting people to talk.  They would rather talk about politics and jews.  I don't know.  I should go do something else for awhile. :cowboy:
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #19 on: November 25, 2024, 05:51:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 25, 2024, 05:48:49 PM
    5000 fleas off of a camel's back for me! I am deeply touched... I hope this is the beginning of something beautiful :cowboy:
    Those poor fleas........:'(

    ;)
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    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #20 on: November 26, 2024, 04:53:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 25, 2024, 12:49:38 PM
    So, is this purely out of curiosity as to where the CI membership stands on the various matters?
    I think so.
    I think he's attempting to build up his case to declare that everyone here is either wrong or a heretic, give it another week or so.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #21 on: November 26, 2024, 06:46:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 26, 2024, 04:53:59 AM
    I think he's attempting to build up his case to declare that everyone here is either wrong or a heretic, give it another week or so. 
    It's the Socratic method.  Rather than directly making an argument with statements, one asks questions that will lead people to figure things out for themselves.

    He described himself in an earlier post as a non-dogmatic sedevacantist who attends Mass with SSPX (therefore he's not fussy about una cuм).  That's not a position that is likely to lead to him declaring everyone a heretic.  I daresay he thinks that half the forum is wrong about something or other.  Just about everyone here does.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #22 on: November 27, 2024, 06:45:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 26, 2024, 06:46:33 AM
    It's the Socratic method.  Rather than directly making an argument with statements, one asks questions that will lead people to figure things out for themselves.
    Some of the questions have already been answered, but those answers do not agree with his own ideas. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #23 on: November 27, 2024, 07:45:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 27, 2024, 06:45:13 AM
    Some of the questions have already been answered, but those answers do not agree with his own ideas.
    Which ones?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #24 on: November 27, 2024, 07:55:30 AM »
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    • In past threads, can't remember which ones but they're there.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #25 on: November 27, 2024, 10:07:28 AM »
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    • It's your conundrum...

    "The pope cannot teach heresy, but if he does he is no longer pope. But the pope cannot preach heresy, but if he does, he is no longer pope - but popes cannot preach heresy! - but if he does he is no longer pope...."

    Then you solved that conundrum using the mystery, the idea that popes are not popes because cardinals were not cardinals, destroying the hierarchical structure of the Church in the process, it's just one of the casualties you needed.

    Note that out of all the changes, the only thing the devil did not obliterate was the legal hierarchical structure of the Church. They must have known they could leave that up to certain laypeople.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #26 on: November 27, 2024, 10:27:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 27, 2024, 08:08:58 AM
    And, just to note, the majority (as of right now) does NOT believe a pope can teach error(s) of any kind on faith and morals for the Universal Church. But if I had just listened to you - I would be led to believe that he can teach all manner of satanic heresy and general councils can promulgate apostasy every day of the week.

    So it's a democratic consensus that decides what truth is? How very Vatican II. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #27 on: November 27, 2024, 10:29:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 27, 2024, 10:07:28 AM
    Note that out of all the changes, the only thing the devil did not obliterate was the legal hierarchical structure of the Church. They must have known they could leave that up to certain laypeople.

    Indeed, even the Arians, Protestants, and Martin Luther couldn't destroy the hierarchy of the Church. But certain laypeople have. And they want to be applauded for having done so. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #28 on: November 27, 2024, 11:09:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 27, 2024, 10:42:53 AM
    1) Do you believe that the College of Cardinals is de fide and necessary to make a pope?
    De Fide? WTH are you talking about? No it's not De Fide, it's the Church's law for the election of the Roman Pontiff that he be elected by the college of cardinals and nobody else, this law is very strict and is ratified by each pope successively. You do away with this law for no other reason than because it's necessary for you to alleviate your conundrum.


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    2) Do you believe that the concept of a legal structure can remain absent its continual use?
    What I believe ("my opinion") is irrelevant because the legal structure of the Church is not absent, it's right there, untouched by the Church's enemies until you came along and decided to insist it is absent in order to do away with your conundrum.

    See the pattern yet?  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Poll: Can the Pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    « Reply #29 on: November 27, 2024, 11:15:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 27, 2024, 06:45:13 AM
    Some of the questions have already been answered, but those answers do not agree with his own ideas.

    I suspect that, in his mind, the answers are obvious and will lead everyone to same conclusions he reached.  But, of course, it doesn't really work that way.
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