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Author Topic: Plinio Correa de Oliveira  (Read 5996 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2018, 05:07:26 PM »
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  • As you point out, Cera, this Litany is so absurd that it must be a spoof.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #16 on: May 09, 2018, 12:20:48 PM »
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  • As you point out, Cera, this Litany is so absurd that it must be a spoof.
    How I wish that were true. I found this commentary on the “Litany” to Plinio’s mother. . .
    The most extraordinary claim here is also the most obscure, "Mother of the Axiological Principle": this means a principle requiring no previous principle, in other words God himself.

    This hymn came into public domain when it was revealed by Prof. Orlando Fedeli, a member of TFP for over 30 years, who asked Mons. Antonio de Castro Mayer for his opinion on its orthodoxy. One can see where the roots of Introvigne's dislike for "apostates" lies. TFP did not deny the allegation; it simply shifted the blame on over-zealous young followers, and claimed the hymn to be perfectly orthodox ((Carlo Alberto Agnoli e Paolo Taufer, TFP: la maschera e il volto, Ed. Adveniat, S.Giustina di Rimini, s.d., p. 17 ss). - shifting the blame onto the boys is a time-honoured practice in certain kinds of organizations. It also claimed that use of the hymn had long been discontinued. The current official version of this issue is given by Roberto de Mattei in his hagiography of Doctor Plinio (Roberto de Mattei, Il crociato del secolo XX: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Piemme, Casale Monferrato, 1996, p. 249): 

    "It is true that for a certain period some co-operators of the association used a litany with invocations to Lady Lucilia, composed by two adolescents late in 1977. This litany was forbidden by Prof. Corrêa de Oliveira as soon as he got word of it"

    Oddly, this hymn by Brazilian adolescents seems to have spread across the ocean, since it was certainly used in France in the early '80s, and a former AC member recently told me that some TFP affiliates were still using it in Italy in the early '90s. When nothing else works, shocked TFP sympathizers who discover this hymn are told that "things are different in Latin America": this happened to be a favourite stratagem in my group, New Acropolis, which came from Latin America too.

    If Plinio's mother is the Virgin Lucilia, her offspring of course must be quite special. Just how special appears from an extraordinary episode, which can hardly be blamed on over-zealous adolescents, since it is based on a statement made by Plinio, repeated in many works on him, and - as usual - proudly narrated in Cristianità. ("In memoriam: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira", November-December 1995, p. 6):

    "On February 1st, 1975, in view of the increasingly difficult situation of the Catholic Church, and hence of the Catholic world, during a meeting of the Brazilian TFP, he offered himself as an expiatory victim. Thirty-six hours later he was seriously wounded in a car accident, the consequences of which followed him until his death"

    More than its political character, it was this highly suspect theological nature of the group which led to its condemnation by the Council of Brazilian bishop

    "During its 23rd plenary assembly, the Council of Brazilian bishops approved a note concerning the 'Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family and Property', advising Catholics not to join the above mentioned Society […]. Its esoteric character, its religious fanaticism, the personality cult of the founder and of his mother, the abuse of the name of the Virgin Mary […] can absolutely not be approved of by the Church" 
     
    (Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece)
     
    The terms "cult" or "sect", with their double meaning of "deviant religious behaviour compared to an institutional religion" and a "closed totalist group", are certainly ambiguous. But this condemnation of TFP reveals why the organization was certainly considered by some to be a "cult" in the first sense of the word; and why therefore this organization took a special interest in the issue of "cults" in 1985, that is exactly when Introvigne too started involving himself in this matter.

    Former TFP members have written that Plinio was well aware of this association. Referring to cult accusations, he used to tell them:

    "This must not come as a surprise; since you belong to TFP, you will be treated as if you belonged to a cult, by your very parents and friends! It will be terrible, and it will be hard indeed to stay faithful."
     
    (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 38)

    https://mond.at/kelebek/cesnur/storia/gb14.htm
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #17 on: May 09, 2018, 12:56:59 PM »
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  • "It is true that for a certain period some co-operators of the association used a litany with invocations to Lady Lucilia, composed by two adolescents late in 1977. This litany was forbidden by Prof. Corrêa de Oliveira as soon as he got word of it"

    Hah, I called it.  These two kids were undoubtedly rolling on the ground with side-splitting laughter as people read this thing.  Prof. de Oliveira banned it ... having recognized it for what it was.

    After I had become a Traditional Catholic, my younger brother was still at a Novus Ordo grade school.  My brothers and I sat down and brainstormed a satirical parody of the Novus Ordo in an essay he was to submit for a high school scholarship.  We were rolling with laughter, and tears running down our cheeks, as we filled this thing with one satirical use of Novus Ordo cliche after another.  To our complete shock, he won the scholarship ... as the judges took the thing seriously and didn't see through the satire.  We also authored something called, "The Community Poem" ... with which we had a lot of fun.  These two kids were obviously doing the same thing with this Litany.  Now, if one or another pocket of TFP folks took this thing seriously, then the kids were laughing even harder about that.  They were obviously mocking Plinio and his Mother with this production ... an obvious parody of some things that the Professor was teaching.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #18 on: May 09, 2018, 03:36:59 PM »
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  • Hah, I called it.  These two kids were undoubtedly rolling on the ground with side-splitting laughter as people read this thing.  Prof. de Oliveira banned it ... having recognized it for what it was.

    After I had become a Traditional Catholic, my younger brother was still at a Novus Ordo grade school.  My brothers and I sat down and brainstormed a satirical parody of the Novus Ordo in an essay he was to submit for a high school scholarship.  We were rolling with laughter, and tears running down our cheeks, as we filled this thing with one satirical use of Novus Ordo cliche after another.  To our complete shock, he won the scholarship ... as the judges took the thing seriously and didn't see through the satire.  We also authored something called, "The Community Poem" ... with which we had a lot of fun.  These two kids were obviously doing the same thing with this Litany.  Now, if one or another pocket of TFP folks took this thing seriously, then the kids were laughing even harder about that.  They were obviously mocking Plinio and his Mother with this production ... an obvious parody of some things that the Professor was teaching.
    Like you, I would love to believe that. But how to explain that its use spread to Europe in the 80s and 90s?
    Also, how to explain this:
    Dr. Plinio often prophesied that he would see the battle of Armageddon within his own lifetime. His followers were kept in a constant state of agitation, expecting this cataclysmic event at any moment. The warrior monks are supposed to be key participants in Armageddon and the subsequent “Reign of Mary”. This false prophet was treated a “living saint”; his followers would bow in his presence, revere his personal belongings and compose hymns honoring him and his mother. Some militants chant a litany to Donna Lucilla, Dr. Plinio’s deceased mother, or substitute the name of Donna Lucilla for Mary and the name of Plinio for Jesus while reciting the Hail Mary.

    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #19 on: May 11, 2018, 03:42:23 PM »
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  • Someone questioned the link between Tradition in Action and their parent group Tradition, Family Property and its cult founder Plinio.

    I went to TIA to find out how many articles they had either by him or alluding to him. Wow! 788 articles with numerous mentions of him.


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 05:46:45 PM »
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  • So, what is your ax to grind against TFP?  You seem to be on some kind of crusade.  I've had only positive impressions in my dealings with them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #21 on: May 11, 2018, 05:48:16 PM »
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  • Dr. Plinio often prophesied that he would see the battle of Armageddon within his own lifetime. His followers were kept in a constant state of agitation, expecting this cataclysmic event at any moment. 

    So, lots of Traditional Catholics, due to the nature of this unprecedented crisis, think that we're in an Apocalyptic age.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #22 on: May 11, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »
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  • Some militants chant a litany to Donna Lucilla, Dr. Plinio’s deceased mother, or substitute the name of Donna Lucilla for Mary and the name of Plinio for Jesus while reciting the Hail Mary.

    And some SSPX types do strange things as well.  Unless you have evidence that this is officially sanctioned and in wide use, you can't tar the entire group with this.  There was a group called the "Heralds" in Brazil that broke off from the TFP and made their own group.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #23 on: May 12, 2018, 02:17:21 PM »
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  • And some SSPX types do strange things as well.  Unless you have evidence that this is officially sanctioned and in wide use, you can't tar the entire group with this.  There was a group called the "Heralds" in Brazil that broke off from the TFP and made their own group.
    Interesting that you should bring up the "Heralds of the Gospel" which are truly a breakaway group -- although all three groups originated with Mr. Plinio. This is the kind of group that gives Traditional Catholics a bad name.

    This Secret Catholic Exorcist Cult in Brazil Is Making a Deal With the Devil
    The Vatican is looking into a group of exorcists who apparently made a pact with Satan on climate change and the death of Pope Francis.
    ROME—Plinio Correa de Oliveira is almost as peculiar in death as he was in life. Dr. Plinio, as he is still known by his devout followers, was a right-wing Catholic figure who founded the ultra conservative Tradition, Family and Property Association, known in Catholic circles as the TFP.
    In the early 1960s, he famously came to Rome to protest the opening of the Second Vatican Council, which sought to modernize the Catholic Church in a changing era. He called such attempts at renewal “a point in history as sad as the death of our Lord” and handed out propaganda with similar sentiments.
    In death, Dr. Plinio is said to be in close contact with Satan, who supposedly can be channeled by Brazilian exorcists. He also apparently rules the so-called afterlife to such an extent that his followers are convinced he controls climate change and is working toward the death of Pope Francis, according to Andrea Tornielli, who writes the Vatican Insider blog, and has published a series of articles outlining this saga worthy of a Dan Brown bestseller.
    By getting rid of Pope Francis, some of the doctor’s followers believe, the way would be open for the Catholic Church to elect a more conservative leader in line with their more traditional practices.

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    Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias

    After Dr. Plinio died in 1995, the TFP broke into two groups. One retains the TFP name and supports the recent claims of dubia or doubts launched against Pope Francis, which are supported by American Cardinal Raymond Burke. The other group, known as the Heralds of the Gospel, was founded by Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias and allegedly takes part in cult worship.

    The extent of Plinio’s supernatural proclaimed by Dias (or at least the extent to which his followers exalt him for that perceived power) is the subject of a new inquiry by the Vatican’s Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life, according to Tornielli.
    Specifically, Dr. Plinio’s followers led by Dias are said to be using rogue exorcism practices in which they actually communicate with the devil possessing people rather than chasing him out, as the standard accepted practice in Catholic exorcisms dictates.
    Related in World News

    Speak of the Devil: The Vatican Hosts an Exorcist Convention

    The Vatican Is the Real Winner of the Met Gala

    Why Won’t Pope Francis Quit His Sketchy No. 3?

    According to Catholic sociologist Massimo Introvigne, who has studied Dr. Plinio’s life work, the Heralds of the Gospel form “a sort of secret and extravagant cult,” with its trinity composed of “Plinio Correa de Oliveira, his mother Donna Lucilia, and Monsignor Clá Días himself.”
    And that sort of devil worship is understandably a problem for the Catholic Church. On June 12, Clá Dias resigned as head and founder of the Herald of Gospels, although Tornielli says he will stay on in what appears to be a consultant-like role.
    "In leaving this assignment I cannot—as I do not wish—before God, to renounce my father's mission,” Dias wrote in his resignation letter, according to Tornielli. “And therefore I will continue to be available to each one, as God made me a living model and guardian of this charism given to me by the Holy Spirit.”

    Getty

    The Heralds of the Gospel

    Particularly damning for the cult-like group is a series of videos on the internet that show exorcisms using practices not authorized by the Catholic Church. They include purported  conversations between the exorcists and the devil, which is a no-no in standard exorcism procedures. (Yes, exorcism as such remains a staple of the faith and authorized practitioners are not only recognized but recommended by Pope Francis.)
    “Woe to the exorcist if he loses himself behind curious questions, which the ritual expressly forbids, or if he lets himself be led into a discussion with the devil as he is the master of lies,” Tornielli says, quoting the words of the Church’s most famous exorcist, Father Gabriele Amorth.
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    In one passage from a video seen by The Daily Beast, Dias asks one of his minions to read from a transcript that was purportedly jotted down by an observer at one of the rogue exorcisms encompassing what appears to be dialogue between the exorcist and Satan.
    The conversation was stilted, as one might expect with the struggle for the possessed person’s soul, but the gist was that Plinio was randomly “breaking people's computers so that they can’t go on the internet” and that he is changing the climate and was “therefore the author of the climate change, and the increase of heat. It is Plinio who does everything,” according to the devil as channeled through the exorcist. Then, the devil predicts that a meteorite will crash into the Atlantic ocean. “North America will disappear,” he warns.
    The devil then turns to the fate of Pope Francis, which Tornielli was able to transcribe and translate from the somewhat distorted video. “The Vatican? It's mine, mine!” the devil says to the exorcist, according to Tornielli’s transcript. “The pope does whatever I want, he's stupid! He obeys me in everything. He is my glory, he is willing to do everything for me. He serves me.”
    Then the devil, again as channeled by the exorcist for the Heralds of the Gospel, predicts that the pope will perish, not during a voyage, but at the Vatican. “The pope will die falling,” the exorcist’s transcript says quite clearly.
    While much of the Heralds of the Gospel work seems, well, fanciful at best, the Vatican’s investigation is very serious. The Vatican could censure the group or strip it of the blessings of the Catholic Church, which would likely not actually stop them, but instead just push them farther underground. Or it could try to corral them back into the fold and hope they stop having sympathy for the devil.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil?ref=scroll

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #24 on: May 12, 2018, 02:49:51 PM »
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  • Here's a lengthy article about Massimo Introvigne, including his connection to Plinio Correa de Oliveira (especially the third page of the article). I think that the author of the article is not religious at all, but he does provide some background into Introvigne and TFP, though it may contain some bias of course.

    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb04.htm
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 12:16:09 PM »
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  • Here's a lengthy article about Massimo Introvigne, including his connection to Plinio Correa de Oliveira (especially the third page of the article). I think that the author of the article is not religious at all, but he does provide some background into Introvigne and TFP, though it may contain some bias of course.

    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb04.htm
    From what I understand, the author was a member of an Italian branch of a Plinio-worshipping cult connected to TFP. He left the cult and has written extensively to try to help others break free or not get sucked in to it.

    In your link, he says:

    At least in my case, I can confirm that I have never held that I was "prevented from leaving" the organization, nor have I ever made any profit whatsoever "selling my story". By the way, I write these words myself: I do not have the funds for buying myself a ghost writer. Two journalist paid me a coffee, and one even paid me a pizza, however.

    Here is his main link which is essentially a book with linked chapters, many of which are about TFP.
    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb00.htm
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 12:51:15 PM »
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  • Plinio was randomly “breaking people's computers so that they can’t go on the internet”

    :laugh1:

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 01:06:19 PM »
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  • From what I understand, the author was a member of an Italian branch of a Plinio-worshipping cult connected to TFP. He left the cult and has written extensively to try to help others break free or not get sucked in to it.

    In your link, he says:

    At least in my case, I can confirm that I have never held that I was "prevented from leaving" the organization, nor have I ever made any profit whatsoever "selling my story". By the way, I write these words myself: I do not have the funds for buying myself a ghost writer. Two journalist paid me a coffee, and one even paid me a pizza, however.

    Here is his main link which is essentially a book with linked chapters, many of which are about TFP.
    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb00.htm

    Yes, it is essentially a book. Lots of information. He sounds reasonable. 

    I first viewed that website a few years ago when trying to figure out who Introvigne is, and also CESNUR's activities. Introvigne cannot be trusted to be truthful at all. He's one scary dude. He's the head of the vampire society in Italy, and reportedly a member of the Freemasonic Grand lodge there. Introvigne was a TFP member at one time, but then left it. That doesn't mean that TFP is freemasonic at all. But it still seems to be a cult. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #28 on: May 15, 2018, 12:19:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cera on May 12, 2018, 02:17:21 PM
    Plinio was randomly “breaking people's computers so that they can’t go on the internet”
    :laugh1:
    Ladislaus, you take the words from the lips of Plinio-worshippers and falsely attribute them to me. As you well know, these crazy accusations come not from me or anyone who objects to Plinio-worship. Rather they come from your crazy Plinio-worshipping pals.
    Let's not forget that TFP spin-off group "Heralds of the Gospel" was brought up by you. After you brought them up I looked into them. In my response to you I said:

    Interesting that you should bring up the "Heralds of the Gospel" which are truly a breakaway group -- although all three groups originated with Mr. Plinio. This is the kind of group that gives Traditional Catholics a bad name.

    I then linked to the news source:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil
    This Secret Catholic Exorcist Cult in Brazil Is Making a Deal With the Devil
    The Vatican is looking into a group of exorcists who apparently made a pact with Satan on climate change and the death of Pope Francis

    In one passage from a video seen by The Daily Beast, Dias asks one of his minions to read from a transcript that was purportedly jotted down by an observer at one of the rogue exorcisms encompassing what appears to be dialogue between the exorcist and Satan.
    The conversation was stilted, as one might expect with the struggle for the possessed person’s soul, but the gist was that Plinio was randomly “breaking people's computers so that they can’t go on the internet” and that he is changing the climate and was “therefore the author of the climate change, and the increase of heat. It is Plinio who does everything,” according to the devil as channeled through the exorcist. Then, the devil predicts that a meteorite will crash into the Atlantic ocean. “North America will disappear,” he warns.
    The devil then turns to the fate of Pope Francis, which Tornielli was able to transcribe and translate from the somewhat distorted video. “The Vatican? It's mine, mine!” the devil says to the exorcist, according to Tornielli’s transcript. “The pope does whatever I want, he's stupid! He obeys me in everything. He is my glory, he is willing to do everything for me. He serves me.”
    Then the devil, again as channeled by the exorcist for the Heralds of the Gospel, predicts that the pope will perish, not during a voyage, but at the Vatican. “The pope will die falling,” the exorcist’s transcript says quite clearly.
    While much of the Heralds of the Gospel work seems, well, fanciful at best, the Vatican’s investigation is very serious. The Vatican could censure the group or strip it of the blessings of the Catholic Church, which would likely not actually stop them, but instead just push them farther underground. Or it could try to corral them back into the fold and hope they stop having sympathy for the devil.

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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira
    « Reply #29 on: May 15, 2018, 12:29:10 PM »
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  • Yes, it is essentially a book. Lots of information. He sounds reasonable.

    I first viewed that website a few years ago when trying to figure out who Introvigne is, and also CESNUR's activities. Introvigne cannot be trusted to be truthful at all. He's one scary dude. He's the head of the vampire society in Italy, and reportedly a member of the Freemasonic Grand lodge there. Introvigne was a TFP member at one time, but then left it. That doesn't mean that TFP is freemasonic at all. But it still seems to be a cult.
    I agree with you Meg. Introvigne seems to be a cult member who is trying to head off criticism of cults. The problem common to all of the Plinio-worshipping groups (Tradition, Family Property, Tradition in Action, American Needs Fatima, etc.)  is their cult-like worship of their dead leader.
    I found an interesting article from a former FBI agent who investigated the worst cults and this is what he says about cult worship of their illustrious leader.
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spycatcher/201208/dangerous-cult-leaders
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