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Offline Traditionalmom

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Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
« on: September 28, 2012, 02:00:41 PM »
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  • I'm posting this here (and not on fisheaters-but I'm sure the local snitch over there may take me to task publically for it) I admit I tried to take the "can't we all just get along" place at fisheaters. I admit I publically castigated several SSPX'er folks for their views calling them "elitist and arrogant"-for that I am sorry please forgive me. I've been reading up on the SSPX and I was buying into the NO has to be OK because the Pope said so stuff but after reading several articles on SSPX.org I have to say I'd be pretty ticked off too to look at things the way they used to be and then after VII voila! it's all different.

    Some of you Cathinfo people may know me from fisheaters I've also been to CAF as under a different user name. I don't like to go there anymore because I'm "abusive" for lovingly discipling my children with spanking and I think sodomy/sodomites-(currently a word that is pretty much off limits on fisheaters for fear of the RSS feed) is disgusting and vile.-I don't see those that are into sodomy as "victims".  

    Anyway a little background first then the questions/issues.

    I currently attend a Cont. Anglican Church (one of the alphabet soup Anglican churches) I would like to convert to the Catholic Church but my husband has made it clear divorce is in the future if that is what occurs. I've been married for 9 years and have 4 children 9, 3, 2, and 9 mo. I've talked to a couple priests one of which was the head of the local Dominican Priory and he told me to preserve my marriage and my children's homelife I might have to wait till they are grown till I convert (so dealing with the divorce will be easier for them). I've watched basically all of the Dimonds vids. I think that some of what they say is logical but it seems hopeless to me if they are right. I prefer to have hope.

    Now for the questions/concerns/issues...

    When is the Pope speaking infallibly? (encyclicals, CCC, Councils, Papal Bulls??) Is VII a "pastoral council"-(proof please) or a binding infallible council-(again proof please) I just don't see how one can reconcile the CCC teaching/current teaching by Pope Benedict XVI and all with the pre-VII encyclicals etc. by past Popes. On subjects like the Jews, Islam, heretics/schismatics etc. The pre-Vatican II pronouncements seem pretty cut and dried, black and white but since VII they seem not "gray" or "unclear" but quite frankly the opposite of pre-VII Popes. Now I can understand the sedevacantist view, I don't quite get the SSPX view. He's the Pope, he's infallible, but he's been making seemingly heretical comments that don't jive with previous Popes.

    I know I sound like a stupid female idiot and I am. I would like someone to explain these things to me in layman's terms not with a bunch of .50 cent words. Feel free to post proof with Papal documents and I'll try to understand them with help of a dictionary in some points.  :scratchchin:

    After seeing what I've personally seen in the NO and watched online other NO Masses I can definately say I won't attend one of those. What about attending a TLM by those that were ordained under the new revised Paul VI rite? Are they validly ordained?

    Please help. (no joke I came here for answers) I've noticed the progression. If you go on CAF you get modernist liberal answers, example: "when the ccc says muslims have the same God they mean that there really is only one God and he's monotheistic" c'mon I wasn't born yesterday how do you reconcile that with fact they deny the Trinity and their "holy book" says God has no Son? If you go on fisheaters you get the same but just a slight difference.

    Not to completely burn FE I've had some good conversations on there but yeah to question anything deeply is to be treated like a traitor and yeah the priest over there is one of them.  
    To be steeped in history is to cease to be protestant.-John Henry Cardinal Newman

    He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shal

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
    « Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 02:47:39 PM »
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  • Welcome, Traditionalmom. I'll answer your questions the best I can.

    Quote
    I currently attend a Cont. Anglican Church (one of the alphabet soup Anglican churches) I would like to convert to the Catholic Church but my husband has made it clear divorce is in the future if that is what occurs. I've been married for 9 years and have 4 children 9, 3, 2, and 9 mo. I've talked to a couple priests one of which was the head of the local Dominican Priory and he told me to preserve my marriage and my children's homelife I might have to wait till they are grown till I convert (so dealing with the divorce will be easier for them).


    I know that divorce is never easy on children, but you really need to divorce your husband now. Your soul and the souls of your children are more important. You can't put off conversion until your kids are grown just to please your husband. What if something happens to you before then? You're going to wish you had converted. A Traditional Catholic priest would tell you to convert and divorce him, for the good of both your soul and the souls of your children.

    Quote
    When is the Pope speaking infallibly?


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

    Quote
    Is VII a "pastoral council"-(proof please) or a binding infallible council-(again proof please) I just don't see how one can reconcile the CCC teaching/current teaching by Pope Benedict XVI and all with the pre-VII encyclicals etc. by past Popes.


    The modernists behind the council insisted that it was "pastoral", but you don't start a Church council, then turn around and say "Oh, but you're not required to believe it". So, we should simply reject Vatican II and say that it was not a true council of the Church.

    Quote
    What about attending a TLM by those that were ordained under the new revised Paul VI rite? Are they validly ordained?


    Only God knows for sure, but it's often advised not only by sedevacantists but even the SSPX not to attend TLMs celebrated by priests in the New Rite. It is doubtful at best.

    As far as "Catholic" Answers, I know what you mean. I would stay away from that place, you won't find true Catholicism there.

    I hope my answers have helped you.

    God Bless.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »
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  • Conversion is necessary SS, but just because someone threatens divorce means they will follow through.

    You're out of your depth to give advice like that SS.

    I do believe the Dominican who said not to convert was definitely wrong, showing religious indifferentism.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 03:30:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    You're out of your depth to give advice like that SS.


    Ok, that wasn't correct. I should have said that if her husband is indeed serious about divorcing her if she converts, go ahead and let him divorce her. THAT is what I should have said, my apologies.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
    « Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 03:57:16 PM »
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  • Traditionalmom,

    Hello. I think most people posting on this Forum would wish you welcome.

    Quote from: You
    I just don't see how one can reconcile the CCC teaching/current teaching by Pope Benedict XVI and all with the pre-VII encyclicals etc. by past Popes.


    You are spot on.

    I say so from the point of view of someone who came from protestantism (Anglicanism and then Methodism) and entered the Catholic Church before Vatican II. During and soon after that Council, it appeared to me that the Catholic Church was slowly going back to where I had just come from, but as a newbie I dismissed the idea, thinking that it showed a lack of trust on my part in our legitimate pastors. Nevertheless, it was upsetting to have my high expectations of the Catholic Church so soon disappointed, but I hung on because, theologically, there was nowhere else to go.

    It took me the next forty years before I came to accept that my early assessment had been closer to the truth than I had realized: there was something seriously wrong with Vatican II, and since, without the approval of the Roman Pontiff the decisions of a general council are a dead letter, it follows that the ultimate responsibility for the errors of Vatican II rests upon the person purported at the time to be the Pope, viz: Paul VI.

    That realization was something of a shock but it opened the path to rediscovering the Catholic Church of my early expectations, albeit in a much deprived state. Classify me as a sedevacantist, if you like, but do not make the mistake of identifying my position with that of the Dimonds. I am most at home with what can be found on the CMRI website, and rather than me reinventing the wheel in order to answer your questions, I would direct you there in the first instance, with the recommendation that you plead with the Blessed Mother of God to assist you by Her prayers.

    The domestic situation that you describe is an added burden for you, and not something for public discussion via the Internet. For pastoral advice about it, I would suggest that you make contact with a CMRI priest: I think you will be treated kindly and you will not be put under pressure to convert in undue haste.

    I may not have answered any of the questions that you have in mind but I hope the above remarks will give you some encouragement to press on with your enquiry, remembering that our Blessed Lord advised:  "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you." [Matt.7:7]
     


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
    « Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 05:13:09 PM »
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  • Sorry to hear that your husband has taken such a hardline, obstinate stance.  At this point, browbeating him and nagging him would probably be counterproductive.  You must work on your interior prayer life, strictly limit your reading to Traditional Catholic books (prayer books, Church doctrine, history, etc.).  I want to throw in a quick recommendation to pick up St. Francis de Sales' "Introduction to the Devout Life" published by Tan Book Co.

    Say a lot of prayers for the conversion of your husband.  Buy a green scapular, have it blessed by a traditional priest and place it underneath the mattress on his side of the bed.  If you already pray the rosary, start off your rosary with intentions and have the main intention for the conversion of your husband.  If you don't pray the rosary, visit a traditional Catholic Church and ask one of the other ladies there to give you a quick instruction.  

    Engage your husband in conversation.  What are the key faith issues that divide the two of you?  Gently explain the history of the Anglican church and how it's really just a counterfiet church to begin with - although I think you already know this and it probably wouldn't be best to start off with this issue.  Share those Dimond brother videos with him.  Sit down together and watch "What we have lost and the road to restoration".  Read the same books together and discuss what appealed to each of you.  Ask him why are not only the vast majority of anglicans pro-abortion but why are even the clergy pro-abortion?  Surely morality matters to him, right?

    Ask him why remaining in the Anglican church is so important to him.    

    If he's staunchly anti-Catholic, then you will eventually reach a crucial crossroads and you will be forced to choose correctly.  SpiritusSancti is right that your soul and the souls of your children are at stake here.  

    The other posters here will provide you with numerous excellent references, this website is loaded top to bottom with a bunch of really knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help you out.

     :pray:---->for his conversion

     :pray:---->for your strength to see this through successfully!

    Offline Traditionalmom

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    Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
    « Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 06:25:51 PM »
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  • Thank you for all of your advice. I would like to talk to a traditional priest. I know where there is an SSPX church with priests on staff. Believe me my salvation and that of my children is foremost on my mind. The "he who loves father, mother, etc. etc. more than me isn't worthy of me" is something I think about often. I have St. Frances de Sales book I will read it a friend gave it to me for my birthday.

    To be steeped in history is to cease to be protestant.-John Henry Cardinal Newman

    He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shal

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 07:10:40 PM »
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  • I would recommend that you not use the Dimond brothers as a yard stick to measure the Catholic faith.  While much of what they present is good, they also present false teachings.  They are dangerous if you do not really know the faith.

    Many answers to questions, in addition to Daily Catholic which was earlier suggested, would be the Aquinas Catholic Site which can be found at:

    http://sedevacantist.com/

    There is also a forum there from which you can learn a lot, though it is not really meant for most people who like to post on forums.  However, the content of the forums can provide a lot of understanding concerning the Catholic faith.

    I would also suggest viewing the website of the CMRI at:

    http://www.cmri.org/

    Irregardless, you should speak to a good traditional priest.  An SSPX priest would be good; a CMRI priest would be better (in my opinion).  Under no circumstances should you speak with a priest who is connected to the "official" church.  After reading the sites above, you will understand why I say this.  

    I can't advise you on your present situation other that to note that you must do what is best concerning your soul.  Ultimately, if you always follow where the truth leads, you will find salvation especially if it requires carrying the cross God has appointed to you.


    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 09:22:46 PM »
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  • Whatever you do, please avoid the Dimond Brothers as you would a poisonous snake.  

    Best wishes and prayers.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Online Stubborn

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    « Reply #9 on: September 29, 2012, 04:32:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Traditionalmom

    When is the Pope speaking infallibly? (encyclicals, CCC, Councils, Papal Bulls??) Is VII a "pastoral council"-(proof please) or a binding infallible council-(again proof please) I just don't see how one can reconcile the CCC teaching/current teaching by Pope Benedict XVI and all with the pre-VII encyclicals etc. by past Popes. On subjects like the Jews, Islam, heretics/schismatics etc. The pre-Vatican II pronouncements seem pretty cut and dried, black and white but since VII they seem not "gray" or "unclear" but quite frankly the opposite of pre-VII Popes. Now I can understand the sedevacantist view, I don't quite get the SSPX view. He's the Pope, he's infallible, but he's been making seemingly heretical comments that don't jive with previous Popes.



    These are some excellent questions you bring up, thanks for that.

    "The pope speaks infallibly" actually means that when the pope is defining or teaching  some doctrine of faith which all Catholics are bound to believe under pain of mortal sin, the Holy Ghost safeguards this teaching from error.

    The pope himself is a mere human capable of all the infirmities, afflictions and corruptions we all are capable of - the only difference between you and him is his position of authority as supreme ruler and Christ's Vicar on earth. You can sin, he can sin. You can make mistakes, he can make mistakes. You can go out drinking and partying with friends, he can do the same - and on and on. He is perfectly capable of lying as you are unless he is defining doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

    As supreme ruler, he is also the supreme law maker and is perfectly capable of making both good and bad laws -which if they are bad, we are not bound to follow.

    As supreme ruler, he is in charge of defending the faith from the "gates of hell", whose relentless efforts to penetrate undetected into the Church will continue non-stop till the end of time. But he is perfectly capable of dropping all defenses, perfectly capable of choosing to not do his job if he so chooses. Before he is pope, he is human.

    For example aka Man for All Seasons, if the pope were to declare the world is flat, would that make the world flat? Same goes for speaking ex cathedra (infallibly). He can only define and repeat those things which had already been revealed to the Apostles at Pentecost for the good of the faith - this very brief and incomplete definition is what is called "the deposit of faith".

    Most Catholics believe that everything the pope does is infallible because of his authority, but in reality, he can do very little infallibly because it is usually (not always) limited to repeating that  which has already been taught or previously defined.  I say "not always" because God can directly reveal (Divine Revelation) something not previously defined, such was the case with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

    The First Vatican Council was infallible and it was about papal infallibility - reading it might help to clear up some things for you: Vatican I declares:
    For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
        not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
        but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.


    I don't want to derail this thread so will only reply in regards to the position of the SSPX with what is often called "recognize and resist". IOW, recognize that the pope is the pope but disobey him when his laws are not good. I am no spokesman for the SSPX but can say they are following Church teaching in that regards as per  Cum ex Apostolatus Officio This Constitution teaches: the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith...........

    This teaches that the pope can indeed deviate from the faith. It teaches if and when this occurs that we are not to follow him, it teaches us that we are to contradict him in his error. I think this is a perfect reference that supports the "recognize and resist" position that the SSPX have held since it's beginning.

    Additionally, they must have known that the pope can completely deviate from the faith as  they continue on:
    ..........Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted

    I think this is enough support for the SSPX's recognize and resist stance. I know others will disagree, but for me, this is enough to entirely and accurately explain why the SSPX remain loyal subjects of the pope yet condemn ("counteract") his NO.

    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Traditionalmom

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    Please explain this to a newbie idiot like myself
    « Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 10:58:49 AM »
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  • Thank you stubborn that was a very good explanation. I will look into reading the rest of the document. "man for all seasons"-is that a reference to St. Thomas More?
    To be steeped in history is to cease to be protestant.-John Henry Cardinal Newman

    He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shal


    Offline PenitentWoman

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    « Reply #11 on: September 29, 2012, 11:13:35 AM »
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  • Traditionalmom,

    I just want to offer my prayers.  I'm so sorry for the situation with your husband... his extreme reaction is unfortunate. Just keep praying for him and have faith that in time, his eyes will be opened.

    I'm new to tradition as well.  I think you'll find this forum to be an excellent resource.

    God Bless your beautiful family.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #12 on: September 29, 2012, 12:27:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Whatever you do, please avoid the Dimond Brothers as you would a poisonous snake.  

    Best wishes and prayers.

    can you give me the biggest disagreement you have with the Dimond brohers, I read on another post that they disagreed with their stance thatMary is not co-redeemer..can you give me your biggest gripe with them.. are you  implying they are of bad will?

    Online Stubborn

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    « Reply #13 on: September 29, 2012, 01:21:37 PM »
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  • Your welcome and Man for all seasons is a movie about St. Thomas More.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6305252564/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=6305252564&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    It is an absolutely fantastic movie about St. Thomas More - watch it if at all possible.

    I would like to offer another suggestion for you to do in your situation.

    Nothing, not even marriage should stand in the way of raising your children in the true faith, but as other have suggested, best to speak to a trad priest about that situation.

    In the mean time, learn how to pray to get the help you need. The help you seek really is only a few prayers away once you figure out how to get what you pray for - you'll see as I saw once I figured it out. Read the snip below, slowly and over a few times if necessary -  and take it to heart - absolutely and literally. Please keep us informed, and God bless you.



    From: Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence
    (Wow, what a fantastic little book)

    Nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must he taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. 'Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives' is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, 'and God intervenes everywhere.'

    From Part 2:
    We do not ask enough

    It is clear then that we do not receive anything because we do not ask enough. God could not give us little, He could not restrict His liberality to small things without doing us grave harm. Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that we offend God if we ask for temporal benefits or to be freed from misfortune. Obviously prayers of this kind can rightly be addressed to Him by making the condition that they are not contrary to His glory or our eternal salvation. But as it is hardly likely that it would redound to His glory for Him to answer them, or to our advantage to have them answered if our wishes end there, it must be repeated that as long as we are content with little we run the risk of obtaining nothing.

    Let me show you a good way to ask for happiness even in this world. It is a way that will oblige God to listen to you. Say to him earnestly:  Either give me so much money that my heart will be satisfied, or inspire me with such contempt for it that I no longer want it.

    Either free me from poverty, or make it so pleasant for me that I would not exchange it for all the wealth in the world. Either take away my suffering, or -- which would be to your greater glory -- change it into delight for me, and instead of causing me affliction, let it become a source of joy. You can take away the burden of my cross, or you can leave it with me without my feeling its weight. You can extinguish the fire that burns me, or you can let it burn in such a way that it refreshes me as it did the three youths in the fiery furnace. I ask you for either one thing or the other. What does it matter in what way I am happy? If I am happy through the possession of worldly goods, it is you I have to thank. If I am happy when deprived of them, it gives you greater glory and my thanks are all the greater.

    This is the kind of prayer worthy of being offered to God by a true Christian. When you pray in this way, do you know what the effect of your prayers will be? First, you will be satisfied whatever happens; and what else do those who most desire this world's goods want except to be satisfied? Secondly, you will not only obtain without fail one of the two things you have asked for but, as a rule, you will obtain both of them. God will give you the enjoyment of wealth, and so that you may possess it without the danger of becoming attached to it, He will inspire you at the same time with contempt for it. He will put an end to your sufferings and even more He will leave you with a desire for them which will give you all the merit of patience without having to suffer. In a word He will make you happy here and now, and lest your happiness should do you harm, He will let you know and feel the emptiness of it. Can one ask for anything better? But if such a great blessing is well worth being asked for, remember that still more is it worth being asked for with insistence. For the reason why we obtain little is not only because we ask for little but still more because, whether we ask a little or we ask a lot, we do not ask often enough.

    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #14 on: September 29, 2012, 07:11:56 PM »
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  • Hello Traditionalmom!


    In the Library subforum, I have uploaded the treatise de Ecclesia Christi from the tome A Compendium of Theology: Comprising of the Essential Doctrinal Points of Both Dogmatic and Moral Theology, Together with the More Important Notions of Canon Law, Liturgy, Pastoral and Mystical Theology, and Christian Philosophy by the Very Rev. Fr. J. Berthier (vol. I.; trans. Rev. Fr. Sidney A. Raemers; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1931).

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/A-Compendium-of-Theology

    Here are some pages you may find useful (Nos. 128-161):








































    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

     

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