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Author Topic: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse  (Read 1719 times)

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Offline Texana

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Could anyone cite an official Church docuмent issued after the Council of Trent from a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian which states that a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian can hold in disdain, omit, or change the existing rites of Sacraments; or introduce new ones?

Please do not offer speculations on what can be changed in a sacramental form, or cite errors that may affect its validity.  Please do not comment on possible changes in the administration of the Sacraments.  I am looking for quotations specifically concerning any possible change in the rites of Sacraments or the introduction of new ones.

Thank you kindly for any assistance for my fellow churchmouse!:cowboy:

Online Angelus

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Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2024, 09:24:30 PM »
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  • Could anyone cite an official Church docuмent issued after the Council of Trent from a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian which states that a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian can hold in disdain, omit, or change the existing rites of Sacraments; or introduce new ones?

    Please do not offer speculations on what can be changed in a sacramental form, or cite errors that may affect its validity.  Please do not comment on possible changes in the administration of the Sacraments.  I am looking for quotations specifically concerning any possible change in the rites of Sacraments or the introduction of new ones.

    Thank you kindly for any assistance for my fellow churchmouse!:cowboy:

    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

    Council of Trent, Session VII

    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    Sacramentum Ordinis
    On the Sacrament of Order
    Pope Pius XII - 1947
    Apostolic Constitution Of Pope Pius XII on the Sacrament of Order

    1. The Catholic Faith professes that the Sacrament of Order instituted by Christ, by which are conferred spiritual power and grace to perform properly ecclesiastical functions, is one and the same for the universal Church; for, just as Our Lord Jesus Christ gave to the Church but one and the same government under the Prince of the Apostles, one and the same faith, one and the same sacrifice, so too He gave her but one and the same treasury of efficacious signs of grace, that is, Sacraments. For these Sacraments instituted by Christ Our Lord, the Church in the course of the centuries never substituted other Sacraments, nor could she do so, since, as the Council of Trent teaches (Conc. Trid., Sess. VII, can. 1, De Sacram, in genere), the seven Sacraments of the New Law were all instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord, and the Church has no power over “the substance of the Sacraments,” that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs.



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13curae.htm

    Apostolicae Curae
    Leo XIII

    33. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse)what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #2 on: January 10, 2024, 11:29:35 AM »
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  • http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

    Council of Trent, Session VII

    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    Sacramentum Ordinis
    On the Sacrament of Order
    Pope Pius XII - 1947
    Apostolic Constitution Of Pope Pius XII on the Sacrament of Order

    1. The Catholic Faith professes that the Sacrament of Order instituted by Christ, by which are conferred spiritual power and grace to perform properly ecclesiastical functions, is one and the same for the universal Church; for, just as Our Lord Jesus Christ gave to the Church but one and the same government under the Prince of the Apostles, one and the same faith, one and the same sacrifice, so too He gave her but one and the same treasury of efficacious signs of grace, that is, Sacraments. For these Sacraments instituted by Christ Our Lord, the Church in the course of the centuries never substituted other Sacraments, nor could she do so, since, as the Council of Trent teaches (Conc. Trid., Sess. VII, can. 1, De Sacram, in genere), the seven Sacraments of the New Law were all instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord, and the Church has no power over “the substance of the Sacraments,” that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs.



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13curae.htm

    Apostolicae Curae
    Leo XIII

    33. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse)what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.
    Dear Angelus, Thank you so much!

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #3 on: January 10, 2024, 07:28:56 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Does a Sacrament subsist in the rite of the Sacrament?  In mathematical language:  sacrament < rite of sacrament.

    Online Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #4 on: January 10, 2024, 08:21:57 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Does a Sacrament subsist in the rite of the Sacrament?  In mathematical language:  sacrament < rite of sacrament.

    Yes, the Sacrament is a subset of the entire Rite. But some parts of the larger Rite are necessary to establish proper ministerial intention, as is explained in Apostolicae Curae.

    The validity of the Sacrament depends on matter, form, and intention of the minister.

    The Church has defined matter and form pretty clearly over the years. If those change in any way from what has always been done, the Sacrament is at least doubtful and should be avoided (except in case of some extreme necessity).

    Determination of the intention of the minister is less obvious. But the quote from Apostolicae Curae and the quote from Trent explain the essence of the standard. If the Church uses a "received and approved" Rite for the conferral of Sacrament, it is automatically trusted and valid.

    But when the surrounding Rite is changed from what has been transmitted by perennial Tradition, doubts are introduced if the changes to the Rite are substantial, as they were in the case of the Anglican Orders and in the post-VII changes.

    What is most important to understand is not the academic question of binary validity/invalidity. Rather, you must know that a Catholic is told as a moral imperative to avoid doubtful Sacraments. The standard to follow is to avoid any Sacrament in which there is "positive doubt," meaning you have objective evidence of tampering, as in the case of the changes to Rites of Holy Orders in 1968.

    Here is what the Moral Theology says about receiving doubtful Sacraments:


    Quote
    678. We are obliged always to follow a safe course, that is, not to expose ourselves to the danger of formal sin (see 249, 258); but Tutiorism errs when it teaches that we are also obliged always to follow the safer or safest course, that is, never to expose ourselves even to the danger of material sin. There are cases, however, when we are obliged (because some law requires it) to follow a safer course, that is, not to expose ourselves or others to some great harm. Thus, we must follow the safer side in the following cases:
    ....
    (c) when there is question of the validity or invalidity of a Sacrament, for the virtue of religion requires that the Sacraments be administered with fidelity, and be not exposed to the peril of nullity. Example: It is not lawful to consecrate matter that has probably been substantially adulterated;
    ....
    679. In emergency one may expose a Sacrament to nullity by taking a course that is less safe for the Sacrament, but safer for the subject, relying on the axiom that the Sacraments are for men, and not men for the Sacraments. Example: Titus is called to baptize the dying Caius. No water can be procured except rose water, whose sufficiency is doubtful. Titus not only may, but should, use the doubtful matter, since no other can be had.





    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #5 on: January 10, 2024, 09:35:01 PM »
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  • Thank you for your assistance, Angelus!

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #6 on: January 11, 2024, 08:58:22 AM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
       Since Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent does not refer to the sacrament, but to the rite of the Sacrament and does not specify what change (substantial or accidental) is required to make it into a new one; is it safe to assume that Pope "Saint" Paul VI is accursed?

    Are the rites of sacraments introduced by that Pope also accursed?  Are they legitimate rites of the Catholic Church?  If we participate in those rites, are we accursed?

    Your help is greatly appreciated!

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #7 on: January 11, 2024, 09:07:16 AM »
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  • Hebrews 13:8


    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Online Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #8 on: January 11, 2024, 09:59:37 AM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
      Since Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent does not refer to the sacrament, but to the rite of the Sacrament and does not specify what change (substantial or accidental) is required to make it into a new one; is it safe to assume that Pope "Saint" Paul VI is accursed?

    Are the rites of sacraments introduced by that Pope also accursed?  Are they legitimate rites of the Catholic Church?  If we participate in those rites, are we accursed?

    Your help is greatly appreciated!

    Safe to say that? No. We don't know if Paul VI repented of his errors before death. So I would take the safer course counseled by Our Lord in Matthew 7:

    Quote
    1 Judge not, that you may not be judged,  2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    We don't need to judge the eternal soul of the man to know that his policies contradicted authentic Catholic teaching. We don't know all the details regarding who did what and why. Only God knows that.

    My opinion is that those new sacraments are sacrilegious because they removed or modified certain elements of the Rites that made them explicitly Roman Catholic. They are at least defective. At best, they were watered down, so that a different, counterfeit theology could be introduced by those using the new Rites. And they should also be avoided because they may not cause the same graces to be effected as are effected in the traditional Rites.

    I think they are illegitimate, but that is of lesser concern than what I said about sacrilege and lack of effect. And by "lack of effect," I don't just mean "invalidity." For example, the new Rite of Baptism may be "valid" in the most minimal sense (that the permanent baptismal character is set), but it removes certain exorcisms that are necessary for the full effect of baptismal grace, as St. Thomas explains here.

    I don't think one is necessarily "accursed" if he participates in those Rites. But I think that a person who chooses to participate in those Rites with full knowledge of their destructive nature would be committing the sin of sacrilege and would fail to receive the graces that come from the true Sacrament.

    Again, there is no need for us to judge the eternal souls of these poor people. We need to try to encourage them to receive the true Sacraments for their own good.



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #9 on: January 11, 2024, 10:14:00 AM »
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  • OK, two points here.  

    1) Trent says that the one who's accursed is the one who says that the rites can be changed, not the one who changes them.

    2) Trent says they can't be changed by the "ministers" (aka those performing the Rites), not necessarily the popes.

    As for Montini being cursed, the Church always presumes what is known in the public forum and does not delve into "possible hypothetical deathbed conversions".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #10 on: January 11, 2024, 10:47:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    Could anyone cite an official Church docuмent issued after the Council of Trent from a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian which states that a pope, a Council, a bishop, or a theologian can hold in disdain, omit, or change the existing rites of Sacraments; or introduce new ones?
    The council of Trent ordered the breviary, Divine Office and the Missal/Mass to be codified/set-in-stone after the council was complete.  Thus, after the council, Pope St Pius V set about completing this task, and the papal docuмent "Quo Primum" is the result.  Quo Primum codified the Mass, as ordered by Trent.


    Thus, to answer your question, Quo Primum prohibits any changes, additions or deletions to the Mass...and commands that ONLY this missal can be used.  This also applies to the Breviary, Divine Office and the Roman Ritual Book (i.e. the sacraments and their forms).


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #11 on: January 11, 2024, 10:51:59 AM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    After reading Pohle-Preuss " Manual of Dogmatic Theology on Sacraments", I have learned that essentially there are two principles concerning the intention of a minister of a sacrament. 1. De internis Ecclesia non iudicat and 2. The minimum required of the minister is to do what the Church does. When a bishop picks up the Pontifical created by an anathematized pope, the book itself being illegitimate (as you mentioned), he manifests his intention. It does not matter what he thinks, knows, or internally intends, as far as the Church's judgement is concerned.

    The Church never used illegitimate books from an anathematized author to convey Her Sacraments; therefore, the bishop is not doing what the Church does. For those two reasons, the intention of that bishop is objectively invalid.
    This exactly describes our crisis.

    As far as pronouncing a judgement on the soul of Pope Paul VI, it is up to God. Objectively, he never cancelled the novus ordo Sacraments which would be an indication of his repentance; and neither did any of his successors. Do they incur an anathema for holding in disdain the rites of Sacraments codified by Trent? 

    (Special thanks to my fellow churchmouse for his collaboration)

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #12 on: January 11, 2024, 11:00:33 AM »
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  • The council of Trent ordered the breviary, Divine Office and the Missal/Mass to be codified/set-in-stone after the council was complete.  Thus, after the council, Pope St Pius V set about completing this task, and the papal docuмent "Quo Primum" is the result.  Quo Primum codified the Mass, as ordered by Trent.


    Thus, to answer your question, Quo Primum prohibits any changes, additions or deletions to the Mass...and commands that ONLY this missal can be used.  This also applies to the Breviary, Divine Office and the Roman Ritual Book (i.e. the sacraments and their forms).
    Dear Pax Vobis,
    The Breviary is not a rite of a Sacrament.  It is a liturgical rite of prayer and as such, it can be altered by the Pope.  Please cite any docuмent of the Council of Trent which refers to the Breviary.

    Thank you for your comment--I am still learning!

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #13 on: January 11, 2024, 11:02:26 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Church never used illegitimate books from an anathematized author to convey Her Sacraments; therefore, the bishop is not doing what the Church does. For those two reasons, the intention of that bishop is objectively invalid.
    We can't declare sacraments invalid; only the Church can.  But your conclusion is correct, that there is a MASSIVELY LARGE positive doubt concerning validity.  This we can say with certainty.  And canon law tells us how to act in the face of positive doubt -- treat as invalid.

    So, practically speaking, we treat the new rites as invalid (per canon law) even if we cannot say with certainty they are.  And in God's mercy, some new priests/new sacraments may be valid, as He wishes some in the novus ordo to save their souls and will still supply graces to them.

    But we who know better should stay away.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #14 on: January 11, 2024, 11:06:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Breviary is not a rite of a Sacrament.  It is a liturgical rite of prayer and as such, it can be altered by the Pope.
    I mentioned the Breviary to show the list of books which Trent ordered to be codified.  This list includes the Roman Ritual, which has the prayers of the sacraments, which were also codified.

    It's not correct to say that just because the breviary is a "liturgical prayer" that it can be altered.  Some parts of the liturgy are of Divine origin and cannot be changed (i.e. much of the breviary and Divine Office are prayers from the Old Testament (i.e. psalms), which are from Scripture, which were inspired by God.  Thus, these are of Divine origin.)