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Author Topic: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse  (Read 1669 times)

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Offline Texana

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Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2024, 11:21:52 AM »
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  • OK, two points here. 

    1) Trent says that the one who's accursed is the one who says that the rites can be changed, not the one who changes them.

    2) Trent says they can't be changed by the "ministers" (aka those performing the Rites), not necessarily the popes.

    As for Montini being cursed, the Church always presumes what is known in the public forum and does not delve into "possible hypothetical deathbed conversions".
    Dear Ladislaus,
    English translations are deceiving!  In the original Latin, "quiscuмque" means "whosoever"; not "every or any" pastor of the churches. (Canon XIII, Seventh Session).  As Dom Hesse said, "That means you, too, Pope!"

     Additionally, the Creed of the Council of Trent states that:  "I also receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforesaid sacraments."  Denzinger 996 (1957 ed.) All popes are bound by the Profession of Faith (Credo).

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #16 on: January 11, 2024, 11:43:27 AM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    After reading Pohle-Preuss " Manual of Dogmatic Theology on Sacraments", I have learned that essentially there are two principles concerning the intention of a minister of a sacrament. 1. De internis Ecclesia non iudicat and 2. The minimum required of the minister is to do what the Church does. When a bishop picks up the Pontifical created by an anathematized pope, the book itself being illegitimate (as you mentioned), he manifests his intention. It does not matter what he thinks, knows, or internally intends, as far as the Church's judgement is concerned.

    The Church never used illegitimate books from an anathematized author to convey Her Sacraments; therefore, the bishop is not doing what the Church does. For those two reasons, the intention of that bishop is objectively invalid.
    This exactly describes our crisis.

    As far as pronouncing a judgement on the soul of Pope Paul VI, it is up to God. Objectively, he never cancelled the novus ordo Sacraments which would be an indication of his repentance; and neither did any of his successors. Do they incur an anathema for holding in disdain the rites of Sacraments codified by Trent?

    (Special thanks to my fellow churchmouse for his collaboration)

    Texana,

    Of course, you are free to believe anything you want. But please consider the following:

    1. You referred to "the Pontifical created by an anathematized Pope." Paul VI was not formally "anathematized" by a competent authority. The quote from Trent theoretically could be used as the legal grounds for an official judgment by a competent Church authority, but that was never done. A formal "anathema" is equivalent to a Major Excommunication (condemned/banned/level 3 excommunication), as you can read here. So, the bishop is using a Pontifical authorized by a person that he thinks is a legitimate Pope, not an officially-condemned excommunicate. So I don't think that is a good argument.

    2. You then jump from "illegitimate" books to the claim that such illegitimacy, in and of itself, would "invalidate" the Sacraments. But this is not correct. In the new Rite of Baptism, for example, there is a change in the Rite (let's call it "illegitimate"), but no one that I know of claims that the core of the Sacrament (the setting of the permanent baptismal character) is not effected in the new Rite. So, the new Rite of Baptism is "valid" in the strict sense. However, I would say it is "defective" because it fails to remove the obstacles to full baptismal grace since the traditional exorcisms are not done.

    3. We know, objectively, that Paul VI (and those papal claimants who followed him) did not incur "anathema" because, as Canon 2314 explains, that level of excommunication (the final stage, level 3) never occurred. At most, Paul VI (and those that followed him) would have been an ipso facto excommunicate. The different levels of excommunication have different penal implications, as I have described in another recent thread.

    To summarize Canon 2314, there are 3 levels of excommunication:
    1. an ipso facto, automatic, excommunicate. No declaration by an authority required
    2. a "declared" excommunicate. Declared by a competent authority after a warning.
    3. a "banned," anathematized excommunicate. Declared by a competent authority after two warnings.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #17 on: January 11, 2024, 12:40:56 PM »
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  • Dear Ladislaus,
    English translations are deceiving!  In the original Latin, "quiscuмque" means "whosoever"; not "every or any" pastor of the churches. (Canon XIII, Seventh Session).  As Dom Hesse said, "That means you, too, Pope!"

     Additionally, the Creed of the Council of Trent states that:  "I also receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforesaid sacraments."  Denzinger 996 (1957 ed.) All popes are bound by the Profession of Faith (Credo).

    There are two parts to it ... whoever says and whichever minister/pastor changes.  Could you post the Latin?

    Quote
    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #18 on: January 11, 2024, 02:52:23 PM »
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  • Texana,

    Of course, you are free to believe anything you want. But please consider the following:

    1. You referred to "the Pontifical created by an anathematized Pope." Paul VI was not formally "anathematized" by a competent authority. The quote from Trent theoretically could be used as the legal grounds for an official judgment by a competent Church authority, but that was never done. A formal "anathema" is equivalent to a Major Excommunication (condemned/banned/level 3 excommunication), as you can read here. So, the bishop is using a Pontifical authorized by a person that he thinks is a legitimate Pope, not an officially-condemned excommunicate. So I don't think that is a good argument.

    2. You then jump from "illegitimate" books to the claim that such illegitimacy, in and of itself, would "invalidate" the Sacraments. But this is not correct. In the new Rite of Baptism, for example, there is a change in the Rite (let's call it "illegitimate"), but no one that I know of claims that the core of the Sacrament (the setting of the permanent baptismal character) is not effected in the new Rite. So, the new Rite of Baptism is "valid" in the strict sense. However, I would say it is "defective" because it fails to remove the obstacles to full baptismal grace since the traditional exorcisms are not done.

    3. We know, objectively, that Paul VI (and those papal claimants who followed him) did not incur "anathema" because, as Canon 2314 explains, that level of excommunication (the final stage, level 3) never occurred. At most, Paul VI (and those that followed him) would have been an ipso facto excommunicate. The different levels of excommunication have different penal implications, as I have described in another recent thread.

    To summarize Canon 2314, there are 3 levels of excommunication:
    1. an ipso facto, automatic, excommunicate. No declaration by an authority required
    2. a "declared" excommunicate. Declared by a competent authority after a warning.
    3. a "banned," anathematized excommunicate. Declared by a competent authority after two warnings.
    Dear Angelus,
    Ok.  Please explain the meaning of the sentence, "Let him be anathema (anathema sit)."  Do you know which theology book would give us examples of real-life application?



    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #19 on: January 11, 2024, 03:03:30 PM »
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  • There are two parts to it ... whoever says and whichever minister/pastor changes.  Could you post the Latin?
    Dear Ladislaus,
    This is from Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, Editio XXXIV:  856  Can.13.  Si quis dixerit, receptos et approbatos Ecclesiae catholicae ritus in sollemni sacramentorum administratione adhiberi consuetos aut contemni, aut sine peccato a ministris pro libito omitti, aut in novos alios per quemcuмque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse: an. s.
    (Page 383)

    Canon Hesse, RIP, explained so well, "That means you, too, Pope!"  I trust his expertise in Latin and Canon Law.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #20 on: January 11, 2024, 03:11:39 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Ok.  Please explain the meaning of the sentence, "Let him be anathema (anathema sit)."  Do you know which theology book would give us examples of real-life application?

    That quoted phrase means that IF a Catholic stated something substantially the same as the anathematized statement and refused to listen to two warnings by a competent authority, then the competent authority could anathematize that Catholic using the ceremony in the Roman Pontifical. Anathematization of a Catholic does not happen automatically.

    Here is the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia page on anathema explaining that:

    Quote
    Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope.

    The book to read on the topic is the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The same 3 levels of excommunication are outlined in Canon 2314. And some of the details about the consequences of each level can be found in Canons 2257-2267 (and other places in the Code).

    Here is an online version of the 1917 Code of Canon Law (English):

    https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #21 on: January 11, 2024, 04:34:53 PM »
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  • That quoted phrase means that IF a Catholic stated something substantially the same as the anathematized statement and refused to listen to two warnings by a competent authority, then the competent authority could anathematize that Catholic using the ceremony in the Roman Pontifical. Anathematization of a Catholic does not happen automatically.

    Here is the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia page on anathema explaining that:

    The book to read on the topic is the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The same 3 levels of excommunication are outlined in Canon 2314. And some of the details about the consequences of each level can be found in Canons 2257-2267 (and other places in the Code).

    Here is an online version of the 1917 Code of Canon Law (English):

    https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf
    Dear Angelus,
    Thank you very much!  I will be reading!

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #22 on: January 13, 2024, 01:09:47 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Thank you for your valuable directions. 1917 Canon Law compiled and explained by Ellis and Bouscaren states: "Excommunication. (...) It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical." (c.2257, p2) page.876

      This statement presupposes a possibility that someone can incur an anathema without official proclamation. It is in agreement with the colloquial understanding of the passage from the Holy Scriptures that Viva Cristo Rey kindly posted on the thread Anathema!: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." Galatians 1;8
    Does Bishop Paul suggest that Galatians go to Peter to proclaim an official judgement? What if "Peter" himself, by changing all the rites of sacraments, incurs the anathema of the Council of Trent? To whom are the faithful to turn to if, not only Peter, but also his successors, being infiltrators and enemies of the Church, continue in the error "Peter" introduced?

       There has to be another source of information on anathema and its practical application. The encyclopaedical knowledge had to come from somewhere.

       We agreed that the new rites of sacraments are illegitimate. The Church has never used an illegitimate Pontifical to convey a sacrament of Order. Dom Hesse was of the opinion that so-called Conciliar Church was a schismatic sect with new rites of sacraments and new magisterium. What he failed to notice is that the Church has never used schismatic books to administer the sacrament of Order. Baptism is a problematic example, because its administration in an emergency does not require use of the Rituale. Also, the heretics and schismatics observing the custom of connecting water with the essential form, are doing what the Church does. Try to ordain a priest or consecrate a bishop without the Pontificale, especially after Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis insists that the whole rite be used and nothing omitted.

    By using the illicit (schismatic) Pontifical, whatever adjective we use to indicate any difference from the one codified by Trent, a bishop will manifest his intention. It does not matter that he is ignorant, thinks differently, or simply wants to ordain a priest to the order of Melchizedek. The Church will not judge his internal condition. The fact is that he uses the book that he was not supposed to use. He is obligated to know the Creed of the Council of Trent and apply Canon XIII of the Seventh Session.

     Archbishop Lefebvre is a good example. He could have continued to use Novus Ordo books. The example of Bp. Antonio de Castro Mayer not ever compromising is a great witness that the Apostolic Succession could be continued without a break. Archbishop Thuc, though faltering in his resolve from time to time, has provided a line of valid bishops.

    Yes, if we apply the 1917 Canon Law to the sect of the "permanent deacons", "priests", and "bishops" of the New Order, Pope Paul VI and his successors are tolerandi until they become vitandi. However we slice it, they are under the anathema of Trent. In the past the faithful would know the Creed and apply it in life. As long as most of those who want to be Catholic are ignorant, the chastisement will continue. I am continually learning and I appreciate your help and Matthew's forum. God Bless!


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #23 on: January 13, 2024, 04:39:10 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Thank you for your valuable directions. 1917 Canon Law compiled and explained by Ellis and Bouscaren states: "Excommunication. (...) It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical." (c.2257, p2) page.876

      This statement presupposes a possibility that someone can incur an anathema without official proclamation. It is in agreement with the colloquial understanding of the passage from the Holy Scriptures that Viva Cristo Rey kindly posted on the thread Anathema!: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." Galatians 1;8
    Does Bishop Paul suggest that Galatians go to Peter to proclaim an official judgement? What if "Peter" himself, by changing all the rites of sacraments, incurs the anathema of the Council of Trent? To whom are the faithful to turn to if, not only Peter, but also his successors, being infiltrators and enemies of the Church, continue in the error "Peter" introduced?

      There has to be another source of information on anathema and its practical application. The encyclopaedical knowledge had to come from somewhere.

      We agreed that the new rites of sacraments are illegitimate. The Church has never used an illegitimate Pontifical to convey a sacrament of Order. Dom Hesse was of the opinion that so-called Conciliar Church was a schismatic sect with new rites of sacraments and new magisterium. What he failed to notice is that the Church has never used schismatic books to administer the sacrament of Order. Baptism is a problematic example, because its administration in an emergency does not require use of the Rituale. Also, the heretics and schismatics observing the custom of connecting water with the essential form, are doing what the Church does. Try to ordain a priest or consecrate a bishop without the Pontificale, especially after Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis insists that the whole rite be used and nothing omitted.

    By using the illicit (schismatic) Pontifical, whatever adjective we use to indicate any difference from the one codified by Trent, a bishop will manifest his intention. It does not matter that he is ignorant, thinks differently, or simply wants to ordain a priest to the order of Melchizedek. The Church will not judge his internal condition. The fact is that he uses the book that he was not supposed to use. He is obligated to know the Creed of the Council of Trent and apply Canon XIII of the Seventh Session.

     Archbishop Lefebvre is a good example. He could have continued to use Novus Ordo books. The example of Bp. Antonio de Castro Mayer not ever compromising is a great witness that the Apostolic Succession could be continued without a break. Archbishop Thuc, though faltering in his resolve from time to time, has provided a line of valid bishops.

    Yes, if we apply the 1917 Canon Law to the sect of the "permanent deacons", "priests", and "bishops" of the New Order, Pope Paul VI and his successors are tolerandi until they become vitandi. However we slice it, they are under the anathema of Trent. In the past the faithful would know the Creed and apply it in life. As long as most of those who want to be Catholic are ignorant, the chastisement will continue. I am continually learning and I appreciate your help and Matthew's forum. God Bless!

    Hi Texana,

    Canon 2257 is saying that an "anathema" can be announced in at least two ways:

    1. "with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical."
    2. using some other process consistent with Canon 2258.

    Here is what Canon 2258 says:

    § 1. Some excommunicates are banned [vitandi], others tolerated.

    § 2. No one is banned [vitandus] unless so named as an excommunicate by the Apostolic See, the
    excommunication is publicly announced, and it is expressly stated in the decree or sentence that
    he must be avoided with due regard for the prescription of Canon 2343, § 1, n. 1.

    Since an "anathema" is a condemnation reserved for vitandi and since a vitandi must be "named as an excommunicate by the Apostolic See," your theory about "an anathema without official proclamation" contradicts Canon Law. The Church has spoken.

    Regarding your second point, again, an illegitimate/illicit/illegal Rite is not necessarily an "invalid" Rite. Its "invalidity" is determined by the criteria of matter, form, and intention of the minister, not legality. The Sacrament of Order conveyed by a heretic would be "illegitimate" but not necessarily "invalid." You can read what St. Thomas Aquinas says about that here:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q38.A2


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #24 on: January 13, 2024, 08:44:37 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Some excommunicated persons are vitandi; some excommunicated persons are tolerati (canon 2258.p1). page 876.
    The excommunication concerns those who committed the crime, but are not yet judged = tolerati; and those judged = vitandi. Both are excommunicated. A person may incur excommunication ipso facto and canon 2258 takes that into account.

    If a heretic bishop who has the indelible mark takes the Roman Pontifical and fulfills all the requirements, he will convey the order validly. When the same bishop, instead of using the Roman Pontifical codified by Trent, takes in his hands the Novus Ordo Pontifical and proceeds to ordain or consecrate, he will not validly ordain or consecrate because of manifest invalid intention. By the act of using the illicit book, he shows his intention.

     We agreed that the rites of the sacraments introduced by Pope Paul VI are illicit. Those rites are contained in the Novus Ordo Pontifical, making it illicit.  It is the use of the books that shows the intention. The Church never used an illicit book to administer any Sacrament. It is an invalidating intention, because the minimum required by the Church is "to do what the Church does". Notice that your example involves a heretic, and we know from the encyclical, "Mystici Corporis" of Pope Pius XII, that heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the Church. That bishop could also be toleratus if his heresy is in fact, but not judged; or vitandus if the Church already pronounced the verdict.

    Thank you so much for this discussion!  We really appreciate your help.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #25 on: January 13, 2024, 09:30:37 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    Some excommunicated persons are vitandi; some excommunicated persons are tolerati (canon 2258.p1). page 876.
    The excommunication concerns those who committed the crime, but are not yet judged = tolerati; and those judged = vitandi. Both are excommunicated. A person may incur excommunication ipso facto and canon 2258 takes that into account.

    If a heretic bishop who has the indelible mark takes the Roman Pontifical and fulfills all the requirements, he will convey the order validly. When the same bishop, instead of using the Roman Pontifical codified by Trent, takes in his hands the Novus Ordo Pontifical and proceeds to ordain or consecrate, he will not validly ordain or consecrate because of manifest invalid intention. By the act of using the illicit book, he shows his intention.

     We agreed that the rites of the sacraments introduced by Pope Paul VI are illicit. Those rites are contained in the Novus Ordo Pontifical, making it illicit.  It is the use of the books that shows the intention. The Church never used an illicit book to administer any Sacrament. It is an invalidating intention, because the minimum required by the Church is "to do what the Church does". Notice that your example involves a heretic, and we know from the encyclical, "Mystici Corporis" of Pope Pius XII, that heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the Church. That bishop could also be toleratus if his heresy is in fact, but not judged; or vitandus if the Church already pronounced the verdict.

    Thank you so much for this discussion!  We really appreciate your help.

    Texana,

    1. I fully understand that a person can incur ipso facto excommunication. However, the "anathema" is not a type of ipso facto excommunication. An "anathema" is only applied to a "vitandus" and only accomplished by the public announcement of the Apostolic See, as Canon 2258 explains. Here, again, is the description of the Pontifical "anathema" ceremony from that article:

    Quote
    Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha.

    2. Regarding your claim that by the use of an "illicit book," the Sacrament of Holy Orders is "invalidated." You are wrong. If the "illicit book" has the proper "form" in it, and the "matter" is applied properly, and the minister "intends to do what the Church does," it doesn't matter if the book is "illicit" or not according to the Roman Catholic Church. If you will read Apostolicae Curae, you will see that the Anglicans were using an "illicit" book. If your theory was correct, Leo XIII could have easily said, in a single sentence, that all of the Anglican Orders were null because they used an "illicit book." But Leo XIII did not say that because that is not how Sacramental Theology works. Leo XIII gave various reasons why the Anglican Orders were invalid and none of the reasons had to do with the Anglican books being "illicit."




    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #26 on: January 14, 2024, 03:32:26 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    The word "especially" does not mean "only" or "solely", in fact it indicates that there can be other occasions when anathema could be proclaimed. The text says: "... It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical" (c.2257, p2). There could be a simple proclamation from the Pope without engaging the Ritual. There could be a verdict from the tribunal of the Inquisition. There could be a judgement of a bishop of a diocese. Yes, none of these examples could make the offender vitandus, but they certainly would make him ferre sententiae (adjuticated) toleratus.
    I do not have the Latin text of the canon. If the Latin text states that: It is called anathema, only if it is inflicted with solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical, I stand corrected. As it is, the English text does not state that.

    Pope Leo XIII could not use the argument of invalid intention for the simple reason that before the Council of Trent, there was not an explicit law forbidding an introduction of a new rite of a sacrament. Bishop Cranmer sneaked his Godly Order before anathema could stop it. Canon XIII of the Seventh Session was introduced precisely to remedy such abuses. Pope Saint Pius V made sure that all of the rites of the sacrament of the Eucharist that were not older than 200 years would be removed. Thus, all the novelties and new Masses were gone. From then on, both in the East and the West, no new rites of sacraments were to be introduced. Whosoever would even say that the new ones be introduced would be anathema. Such a person, even a pope, would become: toleratus (non judged or adjudicated) or vitandus if the Pope used the rite from the Roman Ritual.

    I cannot think at present of any other illicit book besides the Novus Ordo Pontifical that a Catholic Bishop could use to ordain or consecrate. Who else introduced a liturgical compilation of all the rites of sacraments after the Council of Trent?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #27 on: January 14, 2024, 04:42:14 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    The word "especially" does not mean "only" or "solely", in fact it indicates that there can be other occasions when anathema could be proclaimed. The text says: "... It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical" (c.2257, p2). There could be a simple proclamation from the Pope without engaging the Ritual. There could be a verdict from the tribunal of the Inquisition. There could be a judgement of a bishop of a diocese. Yes, none of these examples could make the offender vitandus, but they certainly would make him ferre sententiae (adjuticated) toleratus.
    I do not have the Latin text of the canon. If the Latin text states that: It is called anathema, only if it is inflicted with solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical, I stand corrected. As it is, the English text does not state that.

    Pope Leo XIII could not use the argument of invalid intention for the simple reason that before the Council of Trent, there was not an explicit law forbidding an introduction of a new rite of a sacrament. Bishop Cranmer sneaked his Godly Order before anathema could stop it. Canon XIII of the Seventh Session was introduced precisely to remedy such abuses. Pope Saint Pius V made sure that all of the rites of the sacrament of the Eucharist that were not older than 200 years would be removed. Thus, all the novelties and new Masses were gone. From then on, both in the East and the West, no new rites of sacraments were to be introduced. Whosoever would even say that the new ones be introduced would be anathema. Such a person, even a pope, would become: toleratus (non judged or adjudicated) or vitandus if the Pope used the rite from the Roman Ritual.

    I cannot think at present of any other illicit book besides the Novus Ordo Pontifical that a Catholic Bishop could use to ordain or consecrate. Who else introduced a liturgical compilation of all the rites of sacraments after the Council of Trent?

    Texana,

    1. I will repeat what I already said in a previous post, since you seem to have misunderstood it. Here it is again (note the parts in red):


    Quote
    Canon 2257 is saying that an "anathema" can be announced in at least two ways:

    1. "with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical."
    2. using some other process consistent with Canon 2258.

    Here is what Canon 2258 says:

    § 1. Some excommunicates are banned [vitandi], others tolerated.

    § 2. No one is banned [vitandus] unless so named as an excommunicate by the Apostolic See, the
    excommunication is publicly announced, and it is expressly stated in the decree or sentence that
    he must be avoided with due regard for the prescription of Canon 2343, § 1, n. 1.

    Since an "anathema" is a form of condemnation reserved for vitandi, and since a vitandi must be "named as an excommunicate by the Apostolic See," your theory about "an anathema without official proclamation" contradicts Canon Law. The Church has spoken.

    2. Your entire second paragraph, attempting to put aside Leo XIII's argument, depends on a historical mistake. You said the following:

    "Bishop Cranmer sneaked his Godly Order before anathema could stop it. Canon XIII of the Seventh Session was introduced precisely to remedy such abuses."

    No, Texana, Canon XIII of Session VII of Trent was promulgated
    on the third day of the month of March, MDXLVII [1547]. The Edwardine Ordinal was introduced in 1550-1552. So, the "anathema" of Trent came BEFORE the Edwardine Ordinal. So your entire argument in that second paragraph is based on a historical error. You can read about the history of the Anglican Ordinal here:


    Quote
    It was this venerable ordination rite, as preserved in the English varieties of the Roman Pontifical, which was in use in the country when Henry VIII began his assaults on the ancient religion. He did not himself venture to touch it, but in the next reign it was set aside by Cranmer and his associates who, under the rule of Somerset and Northumberland, were engaged in remodelling the whole fabric of the Church of England to suit their extreme Protestant conceptions. These men pronounced the ancient forms to be utterly superstitious and requiring to be replaced by others more in conformity with the simplicity of the Gospel. Hence the origin of the Edwardine Ordinal, which, under the sanction of the Act of 1550, was drawn up by "six prelates and six other men of the realm learned in God's law, by the King's Majesty to be appointed and assigned".

    This new rite underwent some further changes two years later, and was thus brought into the form in which it remained till the year 1662, when it was somewhat improved by the addition of clauses defining the nature of the orders imparted. As the Ordinal of 1550 had no lasting influence on the country, we may disregard it here, as we may also disregard, as of less consequence, the rite for the ordination of deacons.

    In the Ordinal of 1552 the "essential form", that is, the form adjoined to the imposition of hands, was, in the case of the priesthood, merely this: "Receive the Holy Ghost.

    Leo XIII did not use your reasoning in Apostolicae Curae because your reasoning contradicts established Roman Catholic Sacramental Theology. Again, the "illicitness of the books" does not automatically make a Sacrament "invalid."

    I am not saying that there is nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo Sacraments. But the problems with them are not because they come from "illicit books." The problem is, as Leo XIII and Pius XII said,

    "All know that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible and efficient signs of invisible grace, ought both to signify the grace which they effect, and effect the grace which they signify."

    You should focus on the meaning of that papal statement, rather than your "illicit books" reasoning to prove your point.



    Offline Texana

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    Re: Plea for Help in Sacramental Theology Research From A Fellow Churchmouse
    « Reply #28 on: January 14, 2024, 08:18:24 PM »
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  • Dear Angelus,
    As far as canon 2257 is concerned, we arrived at an impasse. Your opinion is that it conveys only one possible explanation. Neither the English translation, nor Latin text support your position. 
    "Dicitur quoque anathema, praesertim si cuм sollemnitatibus infligatur quae in Pontificali Romano describuntur."t

    Praesertim, adv (prae/sero), especially, chiefly (p.467 Cassell's Latin Dictionary. Macmillan Publishing Company 2000)
    You could help me, by finding in the History of the Church, if the Patriarch of the East about 1054 AD proclaimed an anathema on the Roman Catholic Pope.

    As far as the liceity topic: "December 4, 1563 ... Finally, the decrees passed by the council during the pontificates of Paul III and Julius III were read and proclaimed to be binding."
    "The decrees were confirmed on 26 Jan, 1564 by Pius IV in the Bull "Benedictus Deus" and were accepted by Catholic countries, by some with reservations."
    Quotes from Catholic Encyclopedia, https:// www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm

    Another reason Pope Leo XIII could not use the argument on the illicit rite:
    "This new rejection of the Catholic concept of the priesthood was made explicit by the replacement of the Catholic Pontifical by a new ordinal, based upon a German Lutheran rite; and breathing the spirit of Protestantism throughout" (p.225 Michael Davies "Cranmer's Godly Order")
    The Anglican lawyers would have a field day with this one.

    God bless!  Thank you for a good discussion!