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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: HolyBodyofChrist on September 07, 2019, 04:36:33 PM

Title: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: HolyBodyofChrist on September 07, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9etsimu.htm
"They obstinately reject and oppose the infallible magisterium both of the Roman Pontiff and of the whole Church in teaching matters. Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecumenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head."
That's all, folks!  ;)
Title: Re: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: Bataar on September 10, 2019, 05:37:22 PM
It's not a death knell at all. Nothing in the documents regarding papal infallibility from Vatican I contradict previous church doctrine (to the best of my knowledge). Therefore, there cannot be a valid claim to heresy. Sedevacantists hold that the documents from Vatican II are heretical because they DO contradict church doctrine and tradition. If these documents are in fact heretical, then anyone teaching them, including popes, would be heretics and since a heretic cannot hold any office in the church, the Sedevacantist position is valid whereas the Old Catholic position is invalid. 
Title: Re: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: Praeter on September 10, 2019, 07:42:47 PM
That's all, folks!  ;)

They have more in common with the Old Catholics than that.  Listen to what Pius XII wrote about where the first Old Catholic bishop received his episcopal consecration:

“But these men having progressed more boldly in the ways of wickedness and destruction, as happens to heretical sects from God’s just judgment, have wished to create a hierarchy also for themselves, as we have intimated. They have chosen and set up a pseudo-bishop, a certain notorious apostate from the Catholic faith, Joseph Hubert Reinkens. So that nothing be lacking in their impudence, for his consecration they have had refuge to those very Jansenists of Utrecht, whom they themselves, before they separated from the Church, considered as heretics and schismatics, as do all other Catholics. However, this Joseph Hubert dares to say that he is a bishop…”

The first Old Catholic bishop was consecrated by a Jansenist bishop, even though the Old Catholics themselves considered the Jansenists to be heretics and schismatics a few years earlier, before they split from the Church.  

Where did the first sedevacantist bishop, Francis Schuckardt, founder of the CMRI, receive his episcopal consecration?  He was ordained a priest and then consecrated bishop the next day by a married fallen away Catholics who had joined and immediately been consecrated bishop of - wait for it - the Old Catholic church!  

I’ve said it before: the sedevacantists are nothing but the Old Catholics 2.0.  The Old Catholics claim the Church – the Pope and all the bishops – defected at Vatican I.  The sedevacantists say the Church – the Pope and all the bishops – defected at Vatican II.  The first bishop of both sects received his episcopal consecration from a public heretic and schismatic, and both heresies use a false understanding of infallibility to "prove" that the indefectible Church defected.  

The first sedevacantist bishop was eventually run out of the CMRI that he founded, when it was discovered that he was molesting his young male assistants and claiming to be Pope (Hadrian VII).  The Antipope died in 2006, but unfortunately the movement he started and the sect he founded both live on.

Title: Re: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 10, 2019, 08:41:26 PM
It's not a death knell at all. Nothing in the documents regarding papal infallibility from Vatican I contradict previous church doctrine (to the best of my knowledge). Therefore, there cannot be a valid claim to heresy. Sedevacantists hold that the documents from Vatican II are heretical because they DO contradict church doctrine and tradition. If these documents are in fact heretical, then anyone teaching them, including popes, would be heretics and since a heretic cannot hold any office in the church, the Sedevacantist position is valid whereas the Old Catholic position is invalid.
Good points. I attribute their lack of acceptance of reality to cognitive dissonance and normalcy bias.
Title: Re: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2019, 07:09:42 AM
If these documents are in fact heretical, then anyone teaching them, including popes, would be heretics and since a heretic cannot hold any office in the church, the Sedevacantist position is valid whereas the Old Catholic position is invalid.
Well, obviously the V2 documents most certainly are thoroughly salted with heresies, errors, ambiguities throughout, and deserve nothing less than total condemnation, which we know that the Church will most assuredly and perfectly address if the consummation of the world does not come first. For Catholics, there is not a shred of doubt about any of this.

As for the sede position, it is apparent that the [dogmatic] sedes like to play with fire for no reason whatsoever, except to play with the fire. The only thing [dogmatic] sedeism actually accomplishes and does a pretty good job of, is being divisive.  

It is best to do the duty of every Catholic and simply pray for the pope every day, beyond doing our Catholic duty, there is nothing, (and nothing better) that anyone can actually do about the pope.


 
Title: Re: Pius IX on Old Catholics: "Etsi Multa" (death knell for Sedevacantism...?)
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2019, 08:45:31 AM
What are you talking about?  This is clearly a "death knell" for R&R if it's anything at all.