Quote from: gladius_veritatis

As you are plainly not sincere, there is not point to offer a refutation you will not hear.  God speed.

Who are you talking at? Are you Omniscient as to know who is sincere and who isn't? One doesn't offer a refutation one doesn't have. You are obviously the one who wants the last word without saying anything. If you are trying to defend the NO, then no God speed from you.

Dawn made a very excellent point.

I agreed in my own way.

Let me say it again in another way.


I was baptized in 1950. The only reason I mention that is it is before "trad" Catholics existed. There was only one Catholic Church then and Novus Ordo hadn't been foisted on the Church yet and tradition simply meant what it had for 2,000 years - adherence to Apostolic teaching. Nothing in the Church Fathers can contradict Church teaching from the Apostles. Inclusion in the Church Fathers is based on the following (this is from Fr. Vincent P. Miceli, S.J. - "The Antichrist" page 62.): "First, the writer or teacher of Catholic Faith and morals had to persevere unto death in a life of orthodox communion with the Church. Second, that life had to be eminent for sanctity. ... The teacher must enjoy a certain antiquity (looked at from the present day)...he could enjoy citation by a General Council:...." The last is a good example of Catholicity. In the 1950 Catholic Dictionary the four marks of the Fathers are: Antiquity (the first millenium) and Orthodoxy and Sanctity and Catholicity. Fr. Miceli's definitions are very to the point. The 1950 Catholic Dictionary also adds, concerning Antiquity that St. Gregory the Great (604 A.D.) and St. Isadore of Seville (636 A.D.) are the last in the West and St. John Damascene (8th Century) is the last in the East. The Doctors of the Church include certain of the Church Fathers and also St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine and the first of the modern (modern is the 5 centuries before 'Vatican II') Doctors, namely: St. Francis de Sales. The faith exposited by all of these has everything to do with the Apostles and the Scriptural record of God's revelation to us, that is the Holy Bible; and has nothing to do with Apostate Judaism, Gnosticism, Arianism, Modernism, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Paganism - especially idolatry (see the Book of Wisdom for a condemnation thereof), Magic, Sorcery, Mohammedan heresy, Vatican II, synchretism with non-Christian religion, Evolution, Pantheism, Monism and any and every other form of Apostasy and blasphemy.

Therefore the correct identification of a Catholic is in keeping with the faith exhibited by the Fathers and Doctors and not a label such as "trad", as if it were only one version as opposed to another - namely the Novus Ordo. I am a Catholic not a "trad" and certainly not a Novus Ordo Apostate, which I have nothing to do with. My point is that the true faith is unchanged throughout the centuries.

Let us all confess the Catholic faith and not be mislead by the Freemasonic imitation vomited forth by "Vatican II".

God bless the remnant, which is the Church.