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Author Topic: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
« on: May 27, 2025, 03:29:50 PM »
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  • Someone IMed me to draft the wording of a petition to SSPX regarding the transfer of "priests" from the Novus Ordo who had not been conditionally ordained.

    And, yeah, I let them have it.  Either feel free to spread this around as-is or adapt it for your purposes.

    I myself have grown weary of the SSPX bullying of the faithful and of chapels, and the gloves came off here.

    https://chng.it/5ZhXMc7j6f

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2025, 03:30:25 PM »
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  • We the faithful, the same faithful who financially support the operations of the SSPX and actually provide the canonical justification for the operation of all your clergy, clergy who have no jurisdiction other than with regard to what's necessary to meet the grave spiritual needs of the faithful who request the Sacraments from them, as supplied by the Church only for these emergency purposes, we in turn therefore have a right to insist upon and demand that the SSPX send us valid priests, priests who do not labor under the positive doubt created by the altered Conciliar Rites for the Ordination [sic] of Priests and the Consecration [sic] of Bishops.  Even if there (may seem to be) less doubt regarding the Rite of Ordination, few priests remain who were not "ordained" in this New Rite by putative bishops who in turn had been "consecrated" in the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration.

    Principle

    While the SSPX have made public statements and videos arguing in favor of the validity of these New Rites, barring some defect in the intention of the one confecting [or attempting to confect] these Sacraments, and you can continue to argue for hours until turning blue in the face, the simple fact remains that the BURDEN OF PROOF rests squarely with those maintaining the validity of the Sacraments, since any Sacraments that labor under positive doubt must be treated in the practical order for all intents and purposes as if they are invalid ... except that the faithful may avail themselves of these in danger of death when no alternative can be found.  In other words, we are not required to prove them to be invalid, but it is, rather, you who are required to prove that there does not so much as exist a reasonable positive doubt ... and that's a burden you are in no position to meet, having neither irrefutable arguments nor the authority to impose your conclusions on consciences.

    By way of basic definition, it is a simple matter to establish positive doubt.  Fundamentally, if you can point to something concrete, as opposed to the "what if" types of doubts, that suffices to establish POSITIVE vs. "negative" doubt.  Examples of negative doubt would include scenarios like:  "I could not hear Father pronounce the words of absolution during Confession.  What if he forgot?  What if he got them wrong?"  Those "what if" doubts are negative doubts.  But when the faithful can point to:  "Look, they changed what Pope Pius XII had authoritatively declared to be the essential form of the Sacraments." ... that alone suffices to constitute positive doubt.  At times, SSPX have added the novel qualifier of insisting that there must be "serious" positive doubt, where you can then unilaterally decide when this arbitrary and rather subjective threshold for "seriousness" has been met, thereby serving as your own referee, as it were, in the debate.

    Now, the SSPX have attempted to gaslight the faithful who consider these Orders to labor under positive doubt as [mostly] "sedevacantists", a charge that is at once untrue as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  Now, normally, when a legitimate Pope has promulgated Sacraments, that would suffice to ensure their validity, due to the infallibility of the Church's Universal Discipline ... except for the fact that the SSPX have effectively denied this prerogative of legitimate papal authority and have made this denial the veritable cornerstone for their entire theological position regarding the crisis ... and of course this simply kicks the can down the road by begging the question that the V2 papal claimants are in fact legitimate popes.


    I will briefly discuss here the false and disingenuous arguments being made by the SSPX in their attempts to assure the faithful that the Sacraments do not labor under any positive doubt, and then touch upon the motivations for these false arguments.


    Ordination to the Priesthood.  Ah, look, they only changed ONE "two-letter" word in Latin.  I had been under the impression that the SSPX seminaries taught Latin, and that this particular single word "ut" would have caused much consternation among those struggling with the language as it generally leads to the challenge of understanding the subjunctive mood, and I had also been under the impression that your seminaries inculcated the principles of Aristotelian logic and ontology, the chief fundamentals of which rest on the notion of causes.  If you but dust off your Latin dictionary and look up the word, it basically means "so that", where what comes after it is the effect of what comes before it.  Interestingly, when Pope Pius XII authoritatively taught about the essential form of Holy Orders, he stated that of the essence are invocation of the Holy Ghost and the unequivocal designation of the Sacramental EFFECT, you know, the "effect" that usually comes after that pesky little two-letter word.  In the old Rite, you have an invocation of the Holy Ghost, being invoked clearly IN ORDER TO [ut] make the ordinand into a priest.  In the new, you have an invocation of the Holy Ghost.  Stop.  That's then followed by a prayer, unrelated?, asking that the ordinand be made a priest [by God?].  There's no linking of the Holy Ghost by that little two-letter word to the EFFECT.  So why is the Holy Ghost being invoked here?  Not sure.  To give the man the proper dispositions to become a priest, or the graces necessary to be a good priest?  Evidently the infiltrators who have been out to wreck the Church knew their Latin and the teaching of Pope Pius XII better than the SSPX do.

    That raises another point.  There's overwhelming evidence that bad actors had infiltrated the Church with the intent upon doing as much damage as they could.  Why would the "good-willed" modernizers have bothered with that little two-letter word you claim to be meaningless?  I guess removing it makes the sentence sound much more modern, and relevant to the laity, right?  No, the fact that there's no good reason other than destruction to explain its removal also suggests that this may have been a deliberate attempt to invalidate the Sacrament where "an enemy hath done this".


    Then there's the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration [sic].  It's radically different, and the best that various apologists have manage to do is to liken it to some Eastern Rite ceremony ... except that they made the mistake of likening it to an Eastern Rite ceremony for the installation of a patriarch, who was already presumed to be a bishop, rather than as a Rite to confer the Holy Order of Episcopacy upon someone who had theretofore lacked it.


    Now, SSPX refer to other mentions of the words "priest" or "bishop" in the respective Rites outside the essential form [as indicated by Paul VI Montini], but these occur AFTER the Sacrament had allegedly been conferred, and do not indicate an action of creating a priest or bishop, but a mere assertion after the fact of having done so, one that's completely inadequate to express the form denoting the sacred action of a Sacrament.  So a priest might butcher the essential form of Holy Mass, but then because 10 minutes later you say, "Yep, we consecrated this bread.", that makes it all better, right?  So, then, when did the Sacrament actually get confected?  Did the Holy Ghost scan forward to detect the future declaration to disambiguate this form?  If the priest dropped dead before he added the "Yep, we consecrated this bread.", would there be a valid Sacrament?  This reminds me of the controversy over the Eastern Rite epiklesis.

    Finally, Pope Leo XIII taught regarding Anglican Orders that what was at issue was not the intention of the celebrant (which the Church presumes, unable to read the internal forum) but the intention of the Rite, where even AFTER the Anglicans had desperately tried to "fix" the form, the Holy Father taught that it was too little and too late, since the intention of the Rite to remove all that was distinctly Catholic in the Rite (sound familiar?) established an objective intention of THE RITE ITSELF (independent of the internal intention of the celebrant).  But SSPX have historically INVERTED the emphasis, attempting to claim that they "investigate" the internal forum "intention" of the celebrant that even the Church does not presume to know ... de internis Ecclesia non judicat ... as taught by Pope Leo XIII.

    All this suffices to CLEARLY establish OBJECTIVE POSITIVE DOUBT, a much lower threshold than proving the contrary beyond any reasonable doubt, and the faithful have a right not to be subjected to dubious Sacraments.  You could keep arguing for hours, but, understand that YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY to impose YOUR CONCLUSIONS (arrived at by your own private judgment) upon the consciences of the faithful.  SSPX have historically claimed that they have the right to RESIST the Vicar of Christ on earth TO HIS FACE, but then gaslight the faithful who don't agree with THEM as proud and disobedient.  You reserve the right to disobey the Vicar of Christ, but how DARE the faithful disobey you.  Isn't that so?  That's to arrogate unto yourselves a greater authority than you do to the Vicar of Christ.  So, that expression, which used to be applied to the authority of the Pope in Rome has been re-formulated by SSPX as if it were ... Fellay [aut Pagliarani] dixit; res clausa est.

    PETITION / DEMAND

    With this petition, therefore, WE HEREBY RESIST YOU TO YOUR FACE and assert that we reject your sending of putative "priests" ordained [sic] in the New Rites by "bishops" consecrated [sic] in the New Rite and demand that you conditionally ordain them before sending them into our chapels.

    FINAL ADMONITION

    You are also hereby put on notice that you are playing with fire here, and by that we mean the rather literal HELLFIRE, since I hope you're sure enough of your "arguments", such as they are, that you're willing to risk your own eternal salvation ... since you will be in fact be held liable to the judgment of hellfire if you subject the faithful to invalid Sacraments, where souls may be lost as a result ... and let us here be blunt about the motive ... so as not to compromise your ability to continue playing "footsie" with the Modernist occupiers of the Holy Catholic Church.  Well, we can't very well expect to have any chance of "regularization" from Rome if we question the validity of their Sacraments, so we're going to engage in intellectual dishonestly to shut down all discussion.  If we don't get regularized, how on earth are we going to pay for that 50-million-dollar-and-counting seminary built on the backs of the faithful often working more than one job to make ends meet for their large families when the slight overcrowding problem artificially created by the "Humanities Year" could have been rectified for one or two million dollars through the addition of an extra wing or building on the ample grounds in Winona?  What's going to happen to our priests and their livelihood as they sip on hundred-dollar bottles of wine (financed by the faithful), living in groups at priories with a half dozen or so priests while many even-large chapels get a Mass on Sunday and an occasional First Friday ... and the faithful hope that they can hold off dying and needing the Last Sacraments until the priest shows up for the weekend?  What'll happen if there's nowhere to shuffle credibly-accused predators?  I mean, where else do we send a priest who admitted to predations against young men but to quarters adjacent to the dormitory of a boys' boarding school, from which had ready access to them for additional predations?  I do wonder where sentiments of anti-clericalism may have originated.  Or have the same enemies who infiltrated the Church at large to begin with planted their men in the ranks of the SSPX ... as such decisions are inexplicable (especially after they should have learned this lesson from the Novus Ordo that the coverups are worse than the crimes) other than as deliberate attempts to harm Traditional Catholicism and give us a bad name.  Well, not in our name!



    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2025, 03:35:31 PM »
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  • Does anybody honestly expect anything from these people?

    I would bet that they will ignore the petition and might even say that it is the Devil's work. The only effective way to deal with this is if their money is cut off. Even then, the solution will be only temporary, as they are master politicians and manipulators.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #3 on: May 27, 2025, 03:39:32 PM »
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  • Does anybody honestly expect anything from these people?

    I would bet that they will ignore the petition and might even say that it is the Devil's work. The only effective way to deal with this is if their money is cut off. Even then, the solution will be only temporary, as they are master politicians and manipulators.

    Of course they'll ignore it.  They bully any faithful who might disagree with them (and that's in the petition itself), and they bully the various chapels.  Yeah, they can disobey the Vicar of Christ, but if you disobey them (who have no authority) and disagree with them, then you're wicked and disobedient.  "Faith is greater than obedience", except that when your faith disallows accepting some of THEIR activities.  This absurd contradiction suggests that the same types that infiltrated the Church are deeply ensconced within SSPX, probably at the highest levels, since it's the same tactic.  That's actually one of their weaknesses, namely, that they tend to go back to the proverbial well too often to the point that people figure them out ... of course they probably enjoy that part where they can pull off their crimes in broad daylight and get away with it.

    I'm going to put it out there just hoping that some of their eyebrows get singed reading it, and that perhaps some of the better ones with the SSPX might cause some agitation (or even consider splitting off to the Resistance).

    Offline Crayolcold

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #4 on: May 27, 2025, 03:40:42 PM »
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  • Signed. Maybe we can get the clergy at OLOS in Phoenix to see this. Someone is trying to contact Mr. Fulton right now…
    Pray for me


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #5 on: May 27, 2025, 04:05:24 PM »
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  • Yeah, as others have said, SSPX tend to ignore stuff like this, but it's the start of standing up to bullies, which the SSPX have always been.  Disobey the pope?  Good for you!  Disobey +Fellay or Schmidberger?  You bad, bad man.

    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #6 on: May 27, 2025, 04:30:15 PM »
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  • Hopefully one day there are many more SSPX Resistance and Sedevacantist options so that the Faithful can leave this SSPX behind.

    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #7 on: May 27, 2025, 05:19:59 PM »
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  • Signed. I even received a confirmation email saying that I was a hero for signing. Who would have thought heroism was so easy


    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #8 on: May 27, 2025, 05:22:16 PM »
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  • Of course they'll ignore it.  They bully any faithful who might disagree with them (and that's in the petition itself), and they bully the various chapels.  Yeah, they can disobey the Vicar of Christ, but if you disobey them (who have no authority) and disagree with them, then you're wicked and disobedient.  "Faith is greater than obedience", except that when your faith disallows accepting some of THEIR activities.  This absurd contradiction suggests that the same types that infiltrated the Church are deeply ensconced within SSPX, probably at the highest levels, since it's the same tactic.  That's actually one of their weaknesses, namely, that they tend to go back to the proverbial well too often to the point that people figure them out ... of course they probably enjoy that part where they can pull off their crimes in broad daylight and get away with it.

    I'm going to put it out there just hoping that some of their eyebrows get singed reading it, and that perhaps some of the better ones with the SSPX might cause some agitation (or even consider splitting off to the Resistance).
    I agree that it’s unlikely to produce results or even a response. Some SSPX chapels are overflowing with recent arrivals, refugees from the novus ordo who locked them out during the c-sickness. Through no fault of their own, most of these newbies are not attuned to the finer points or even grasp the basic catechism as believed pre-V2. The majority do not know history in general, much less Church history. They haven’t studied the writings of Archbishop LeFebvre or know much about the SSPX itself. The majority of them weren’t born until V2 was over and done or were born, but are too young to have any memory of the pre-conciliar Church or with the radical changes. With these people, your letter is unlikely to gain much traction.
    H O W E V E R…..some of us DO remember, are fairly knowledgeable, and perhaps are old enough to be among the Pioneers who donated their life’s savings, worked extra jobs, did fund raising, gave huge amounts of their time to perhaps procure a priest to say Mass in a suburban garage, BYOC&K, (Bring your own chair and some kind of kneeler or do penance standing and kneeling on the concrete!), cradle trads raised in the SSPX who keep the Faith, these are people who will sign this petition.
    The letter needs trimming down, however. Keep to the one issue, the using of doubtfully ordained priests and bishops. While the issues of hiding and recycling a few perverts, the costly seminary, and glaring disparity of certain clergy and priories basking in luxury while other clergy, faithful, and chapels struggle on with rented facilities, sporadic Masses, and too few priests.
    These are indeed serious issues, but all the priests in the world make no difference if they aren’t actually priests. If enough of the faithful have positive doubts, they’ll disappear and take their money with them, no matter if they invested their entire lives into a chapel, priory, or seminary. If the powers that be in the SSPX truly make the salvation of souls their number one and really, ONLY PRIORITY, they can prove it by the public conditional reordination and/or consecration of men from the novus ordo. It is neither difficult nor costly to do. The men can be gathered in a central location and the bare-bones traditional rite imposed by one of the still living bishops. No crowd of guests, no banquet hall or luxurious housing need be present. Do it the US at the seminary and livestream it on a variety of platforms. Download it onto old-school devices that do not require internet. How about publishing an Angelus with photos and the transcript? The Oath Against Modernism with all the priests’ signatures below? When the grid collapses and chaos descends worldwide, at least a few copies will survive. Just eliminate the doubt!
    For me, personally, I will still use the neo-SSPX if I know the priest is a real priest. If I do not know by whom he was ordained and cannot find out in time, or whether he was conditionally ordained if from the novus ordo, for my soul’s sake, I go without. I went without for two years during the c-sickness no thanks to Dr. Fauxi, Joe Biden, and the government of Canada who would not let me in for three hours once a month. I presently get the Sacraments from an SSPX whom I know to be properly ordained. There are transfers afoot. If he is replaced by a priest of doubtful validity, it’ll be back to live-streaming and reading the missal with my cat.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #9 on: May 27, 2025, 06:38:01 PM »
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  • So, I did receive one comment by PM about the negative tone.  I deliberately adopted that tone and that combative stance knowing full well that if you just kindly ask them to please stop troubling our consciences, their attitude in recent years has been to laugh at that.  So they need some stronger medicine ... both for their good and the good of the faithful who might be afflicted wtih invalid Sacraments or at least, if they do happen to be valid, afflicted and troubled in their consciences.

    Here's how I responded to the PM ...
    Quote
    Thanks.  Yes, there's a negative tone, but it was deliberate.  As I mentioned, you can copy this and change that tone, but here's the thing.

    We know that they're going to ignore it.  SSPX have acted like bullies, stereotypical playground / schoolyard bullies, and very often the only way to get their attention is to take the gloves off and to take them on.  See, if we just present a weak, mealy-mouthed petition.  Oh, please SSPX, hear our plea ... they'll laugh at our lack of strength, as is the bully's tendency ... and will simply ignore it.

    It's also why I threw in there the mentions of some of their other antics.  I like this type of thing floating around in public to "shame" them.

    In any case, that was my intention for adopting the strong language.

    I have the utmost respect for priests at "Alteri Christi", will bow my head, call them "Father", but then if I feel the need to lay into them, then I will, especially for those who are arrogant and refuse to listen when addressed in any other tone.

    If you look at how St. Catherine of Siena dealt with the Pope at Avignon.  Same thing, where she'd reverence the Pope, kneel down, kiss his ring, and then unload a torrent of accusations for how he's harming the Church.

    They need a wakeup call to snap them out of this stupor of complacency, where they think they can get away with whatever they want and then impose their opinions on the consciences of the faithful.  That's just plain wrong.

    Yes, as I said, if you believe another approach might be more effective, I give you full liberty to take this, amend it, edit however you please, remover or add whatever you want.  I claim no "copyright" ownership of any kind, so long as if you change it you do not attribute it to me in any way so that people might think that its contents were my own.

    Even if you told them, "Please, Fathers, reconsider this policy, since it troubles the consciences of many of the faithful." ... I honestly have gotten the distinct impression from them these past years that THEY COULD HARDLY CARE LESS ABOUT OUR CONSCIENCES.  It's my way or the highway, or if I tell your conscience not to be troubled, you are not to be troubled, since I am priest, you are layman, etc. etc.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #10 on: May 27, 2025, 07:13:32 PM »
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  • Now, normally, when a legitimate Pope has promulgated Sacraments, that would suffice to ensure their validity, due to the infallibility of the Church's Universal Discipline
    .

    Yup. And a true pope, Pius XII, did in fact do this with holy orders in Sacramentum Ordinis, which determined the valid words for conferring holy orders, and which the new rite is incompatible with.

    I think one of the strongest arguments establishing doubt for the new holy orders is that it violates Sacramentum Ordinis; you might consider putting a mention of that in your petition.

    The decree of Pius XII goes as follows:

    Quote
    As to the matter and form in the conferring of each Order, We of Our same supreme Apostolic Authority decree and provide as follows: In the Ordination to the Diaconate, the matter is the one imposition of the hand of the Bishop which occurs in the rite of that Ordination. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:
    .

    And the new rite does not contain all the words that follow. :facepalm:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #11 on: May 27, 2025, 09:54:01 PM »
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  • .

    Yup. And a true pope, Pius XII, did in fact do this with holy orders in Sacramentum Ordinis, which determined the valid words for conferring holy orders, and which the new rite is incompatible with.

    I think one of the strongest arguments establishing doubt for the new holy orders is that it violates Sacramentum Ordinis; you might consider putting a mention of that in your petition.

    The decree of Pius XII goes as follows:
    .

    And the new rite does not contain all the words that follow. :facepalm:

    Well, a True Pope could introduce a new Rite and designate different essential form therein, so it all hinges upon whether or not Montini was a True Pope.

    Problem is that SSPX can't use that argument from disciplinary infallibility because, well, they've spent decades pooh-poohing the entire notion as made up by radical sedevacantists and such.

    So that leaves them with absolutely nothing other than their arguments, from their top, highly-trained "theologians" ... which basically means the smarter ones among their priests who they send in to study such matters for a few weeks between flying out to mission chapels.

    Now, for SVs there's most certainly a correlation, except it's not what the one priest on that video stated, that SVs "need" these Orders to be invalid to establish their case.  Hogwash.  It would have been perfectly possible to conclude SV without any of their Sacraments being invalid.  It SHOULD be the other way around, and Michael Davies does in fact use that argument, that a legitimate pope cannot promulgate invalid Sacraments.  Also, according to him, SVs WANT the NO Sacraments to be invalid.  Yeah, sure ... I wouldn't want to be able to go to Confession as needed to a priest five minutes from my house, but prefer to wait until the weekend and hope and pray I don't have a serious health issue requiring Last Rites before the priest comes to town.  I actually have regularly compiled lists of older pre-V2-priests, most of whom are now retired, but can still be found, some in Residence, as they way, at various churches, but just helping out with light duties.  I've actually picked up one of these priests in particular and driven him to provide at least valid absolution to some dying individuals ... since it was my only option.  He was the one who said Motu Mass and likely did not have legit holy oils for Extreme Unction, but at least he could confer valid absolution and an apostolic blessing, etc.  But that's just because I don't WANT "Father" Bob down the street to be a valid priest.

    But then it goes back to your arguments against sedevacantism.

    At no point can they bring to the table anything other than their own private-judgment-based arguments, which do not suffice to impose matters on the consciences of the faithful.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #12 on: May 27, 2025, 10:05:09 PM »
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  • So that leaves them with absolutely nothing other than their arguments, from their top, highly-trained "theologians" ... which basically means the smarter ones among their priests who they send in to study such matters for a few weeks between flying out to mission chapels.

    I can't tell you how often we've heard Father Calderon referred to as one of the SSPX's top "theologians".  I recall an elderly priest who visited Winona.  We all tried to spend time with him, to understand what an actual pre-V2 priest from normal times thought about things (vs. our possibly-warped perception of some things).  He complained that every priest now considered himself some kind of theologian, whereas just making it through seminary qualified you to work as an assistant priest at a parish, and then with much experience a pastor.  But to be called a theologian they would need advanced Pontifical degrees and years of additional study, often in Rome.

    Such priests (including SSPX) are certainly entitled to their opinions but they have zero authority other than whatever instrinsic merit their arguments might have, and they cannot impose these views on the faithful.

    So, if there's objective room for debate (as many very intelligent Catholic men do debate it), there's zero reason NOT to perform the conditional ordinations ... other than the obvious of wanting to cozy up with the Vatican Modernists.  Period.

    Bishop Williamson said that he personally believed they were valid but that he could understand how intelligent priests and faithful could conclude otherwise, so he felt there was no reason NOT to confer the condition ordinations ... given that he had no desire to cozy up with Rome.

    I know a priest who had been "ordained" by St. Wojtyla himself in Rome whom Bishop Williamson ordained conditionally ... :laugh1: ... and then of course +Vigano had been "consecrated" by St. Wojtyla only to have +Williamson conditionally consecrate him.  So what does that say about Wojtyla's "intentions" if even the great saint's intentions cannot be presumed?  In that case, it would almost get you in more hot water than if you just claimed the Rites were doubtful.  Heck, you could even try to just blame it on bad translations, on the tendency of NO bishops to adlib stuff, etc.  But then you claim the Rite is valid when confected with a Catholic intention, you're saying basically that Wojtyla was a heretic (without Catholic intention) ... by conferring conditional on those ordained/consecrated by him.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 04:47:47 AM »
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  • Chapel where I went to "cleaned house", now it's mostly novus ordoites who have no clue what's really going on. Novus ordo sspx "priest" was refusing to say who ordained him ("none of your business" was his quote), another (valid) sspx priest spiritually blackmailing "mean bad sedes" and throwing them out of the chapel without any canonical ground, then also telling all the faithful that c0vid jibby jabby is "neutral" and that no one should dare to impose the stance on others that they should not take it if they want to. Once upon a time they were courageous lions thundering from the pulpits about the errors of the council and new "mass". All they have left from that zeal now is to use it against the ones who stand against their conscience. "Operation survival" is unfortunately turning into "operation ѕυιcιdє". It's a sad sad situation. 

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Petition to SSPX re: Priests from Novus Ordo
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:36:39 AM »
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  • I can't tell you how often we've heard Father Calderon referred to as one of the SSPX's top "theologians".  I recall an elderly priest who visited Winona.  We all tried to spend time with him, to understand what an actual pre-V2 priest from normal times thought about things (vs. our possibly-warped perception of some things).  He complained that every priest now considered himself some kind of theologian, whereas just making it through seminary qualified you to work as an assistant priest at a parish, and then with much experience a pastor.  But to be called a theologian they would need advanced Pontifical degrees and years of additional study, often in Rome.

    :laugh1: I have always thought it very funny when Traditionalist priests are referred to as "theologians". As if reading a lot of books and writing articles for the SSPX conferences made you some kind of expert.

    It is not because the Pontifical institutions have gone Modernist that they can start calling priests who like to read books "theologians". A doctorate used to be a serious business. You simply can't have it without the institutions.

    These people are delusional. They listen to each other so much, in their own little world, that they start believing that they are really great and wise men.