Author Topic: PAX- what is false obedience? (Read 2727 times)

s2srea · « **on:** December 06, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »

Others, please give Pax the opportunity to respond first, thanks.

Pax-

What is false obedience?

How does/can this relate to the current situation in the Church?

Can a pope say erroneous comments?

pax · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2011, 02:29:55 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Others, please give Pax the opportunity to respond first, thanks.

Pax-

What is false obedience?

How does/can this relate to the current situation in the Church?

Can a pope say erroneous comments?

Of course a Pope can make erroneous comments! What he cannot do is bind the Faithful to believe error.

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2011, 02:49:40 PM »

Agreed.

So please explain, how is it that one who rejects the errors of the pope, rejects his authority? Since you say, he can not bind anyone to his errors. Sounds contradictory to me.

pax · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:08:25 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Agreed.

So please explain, how is it that one who rejects the errors of the pope, rejects his authority? Since you say, he can not bind anyone to his errors. Sounds contradictory to me.

What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost prevents the Pope from binding the Faithful to error.

First, I have the promise of God that He will prevent the Pope from ever binding me to believe error.

Second, I have the command of God to believe and obey what the pope tells me I must believe.

Third, to paraphrase Pope Pius XI, the command from God to believe cannot even be understood unless I also have the guarantee that what I am asked to believe is free from all error.

Nowhere in either the promise or the command is there any room for my own private judgment.

s2srea · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:33:32 PM »

Quote from: pax

Quote from: s2srea
Agreed.

So please explain, how is it that one who rejects the errors of the pope, rejects his authority? Since you say, he can not bind anyone to his errors. Sounds contradictory to me.

What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost prevents the Pope from binding the Faithful to error.

First, I have the promise of God that He will prevent the Pope from ever binding me to believe error.

Second, I have the command of God to believe and obey what the pope tells me I must believe.

Third, to paraphrase Pope Pius XI, the command from God to believe cannot even be understood unless I also have the guarantee that what I am asked to believe is free from all error.

Nowhere in either the promise or the command is there any room for my own private judgment.

You still fail to explain how one who rejects the errors of the pope is somehow rejecting the authority of Peter, as you say in the other thread.

pax · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
Agreed.

So please explain, how is it that one who rejects the errors of the pope, rejects his authority? Since you say, he can not bind anyone to his errors. Sounds contradictory to me.

What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost prevents the Pope from binding the Faithful to error.

First, I have the promise of God that He will prevent the Pope from ever binding me to believe error.

Second, I have the command of God to believe and obey what the pope tells me I must believe.

Third, to paraphrase Pope Pius XI, the command from God to believe cannot even be understood unless I also have the guarantee that what I am asked to believe is free from all error.

Nowhere in either the promise or the command is there any room for my own private judgment.

You still fail to explain how one who rejects the errors of the pope is somehow rejecting the authority of Peter, as you say in the other thread.

Because God did not promise me the Pope would be free from error.

He only promised me the Pope would never bind His Church to believe error.

I see a vast chasm between the two.

s2srea · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:01:09 PM »

Excellent. Then we're agreed.

There's no schism, since God promised that the pope can not bind people to error
The pope is erroneous.
Rejecting his error, is not an act of schism.

Welcome back to reality.

pax · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:04:39 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Excellent. Then we're agreed.

There's no schism, since God promised that the pope can not bind people to error
The pope is erroneous.
Rejecting his error, is not an act of schism.

Welcome back to reality.

What happened to the command to believe whatever the Pope bound you to believe?

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:08:35 PM »

Quote from: pax

Quote from: s2srea
Excellent. Then we're agreed.

There's no schism, since God promised that the pope can not bind people to error
The pope is erroneous.
Rejecting his error, is not an act of schism.

Welcome back to reality.

What happened to the command to believe whatever the Pope bound you to believe?

We are bound to believe in the deposit of Faith left by the apostles. The pope if bound to pass on the Deposit of Faith and the Tradition he recieves from his predecessors. If he fails, we are bound, as Catholics to remain true to the teachings of the Church, and wait for the pope to cease in his errors, or wait for him to die, and get a new pope. Which ever comes first.

pax · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:09:52 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
Excellent. Then we're agreed.

There's no schism, since God promised that the pope can not bind people to error
The pope is erroneous.
Rejecting his error, is not an act of schism.

Welcome back to reality.

What happened to the command to believe whatever the Pope bound you to believe?

We are bound to believe in the deposit of Faith left by the apostles. The pope if bound to pass on the Deposit of Faith and the Tradition he recieves from his predecessors. If he fails, we are bound, as Catholics to remain true to the teachings of the Church, and wait for the pope to cease in his errors, or wait for him to die, and get a new pope. Which ever comes first.

How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

s2srea · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:12:53 PM »

Quote from: pax

How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

Thats a silly question. She has already taught us. It lies in the apostles creed.

When a pope deters from what has always been taught, he is in error. Not rejecting his error, places you into schism from the Catholic Church. I believe that tradition trumps the temporal pax.

pax · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:16:47 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: pax
How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

Thats a silly question. She has already taught us. It lies in the apostles creed.

When a pope deters from what has always been taught, he is in error. Not rejecting his error, places you into schism with the

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

s2srea · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:31:52 PM »

Quote from: pax

Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: pax
How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

Thats a silly question. She has already taught us. It lies in the apostles creed.

When a pope deters from what has always been taught, he is in error. Not rejecting his error, places you into schism with the

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Great. You still fail to explain: what happens when a pope(current) contradicts other popes (former)? Do you submit to the former or current pope?

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:13:32 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: pax
How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

Thats a silly question. She has already taught us. It lies in the apostles creed.

When a pope deters from what has always been taught, he is in error. Not rejecting his error, places you into schism with the

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Great. You still fail to explain: what happens when a pope(current) contradicts other popes (former)? Do you submit to the former or current pope?

True popes can't contradict former popes in matters of the Faith.

pax · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:43:33 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: pax
How do you know what the Depositof Faith is unless the Church tells you?

Thats a silly question. She has already taught us. It lies in the apostles creed.

When a pope deters from what has always been taught, he is in error. Not rejecting his error, places you into schism with the

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Great. You still fail to explain: what happens when a pope(current) contradicts other popes (former)? Do you submit to the former or current pope?

I submit to both. I use what I call "Saint Augustine's Suspension of Disbelief Principle". If I find what appears to be a contradiction, then I come to one of three conclusions: (1) the text is faulty, (2) the translation is faulty, or, (3) I myself do not understand.

We think we see contradicitons, but we must remember that:

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.