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Author Topic: Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?  (Read 1415 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
« on: August 18, 2014, 09:51:58 PM »
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  • What were Paul VI's reasons for devising all new sacraments?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 11:23:59 PM »
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  • He justifies it by saying that since Vatican II called for revision of the liturgy, ergo all sacraments should be revised!
    Quote
    Pontificalis Romani recognitio - Approval of New Rites of Ordination
    ---------------------------------
    Promulgated June 18, 1968
    Apostolic Constitution
    Paul, Bishop
    Servant of the Servants of God for an Everlasting Memorial
    ---------------------------------
    The revision of the Roman Pontifical is prescribed in a general way by the
    Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council [1] and is also governed by the specific
    conciliar directive ordering the revision of "both the ceremonies and texts" of
    the ordination rites. [2]

    Among the rites of ordination the first to be considered are those that
    constitute the hierarchy through the sacrament of orders, conferred in its
    several degrees. "The divinely established eclesiastical ministry is exercised
    at different levels by those who from antiquity have been called bishops,
    presbyters, and deacons." [3]

    The revision of the rites for ordinations is to follow the general principles
    that must direct the entire reform of the Liturgy according to the decrees of
    Vatican Council II. But in addition a supreme criterion for that revision must
    be the dear teaching of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church concerning the
    nature and effects of the sacrament of orders. This teaching must of course
    receive expression through the Liturgy itself in its own way, because "the texts
    and rites should be so drawn up that they express more clearly the holy things
    they signify and that the Christian people, as hr as possible, are able to
    understand them with ease and to take part in the rites fully, actively, and as
    befits a community." [4]

    The Council teaches that episcopal consecration bestows the fullness of the
    sacrament of orders, that fullness of power, namely, which in both the Church's
    liturgical practice and the language of the Fathers is called the high
    priesthood, the summit of the sacred ministry. But episcopal consecration,
    together with the of office of sanctifying also confers the offices of teaching
    and governing offices that of their very nature can be exercised only in
    hierarchic communion with the head of the college and its members. For from
    tradition, expressed especially in Liturgical rites and in the usage of the
    Church of both East and West, it is dear that the laying on of hands and the
    words of consecration bestow the grace of the Holy Spirit and impress a sacred
    character in such a way that bishops in an eminent and visible way carry on the
    role of Christ himself as teacher, shepherd, and high priest and act in his
    person. [5]

    To these words must be added a number of important doctrinal points concerning
    the apostolic succession of bishops and their functions and duties. Even if
    these themes are already present in the rite of episcopal consecration, it still
    seems that they must be better and more precisely expressed. To ensure this, it
    was judged appropriate to take from ancient sources the consecratory prayer that
    is found in the docuмent called the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome,
    written at the beginning of the third century. This consecratory prayer is still
    used, in large part, in the ordination rites of the Coptic and West Syrian
    liturgies. Thus in the very act of ordination there is a witness to the harmony
    of tradition in East and West concerning the apostolic office of bishops.

    With regard to presbyters, the following should be especially recalled from the
    acts of the Council: "Even though they do not possess the fullness of the
    priesthood and in the exercise of their power are subordinate to the bishops,
    priests are nevertheless linked to the bishops in priestly dignity. By virtue of
    the sacrament of orders, in the image of Christ the eternal High Priest (see
    Heb 5:1-10 and 7-24, 9:11-28), they are consecrated to preach the Gospel, to
    shepherd the faithful, and to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the
    New Testament." [6] Elsewhere the Council says: "By ordination and the mission
    they receive from the bishops, presbyters are promoted to the service of Christ
    the Teacher, Priest, and King. They share in his ministry of unceasingly
    building up the Church on earth into the people of God, the Body of Christ, and
    the temple of the Holy Spirit." [7] In the ordination of presbyters, as formerly
    given in the Roman Pontifical, the mission and grace of the presbyter as a
    helper of the episcopal order were very clearly described. Yet it seemed
    necessary to reduce the entire rite, which had been divided into several parts,
    to a greater unity and to express more strikingly the central part of the
    ordination, that is, the laying on of hands and the consecratory prayer.

    Finally, with regard to deacons, in addition to the content of our Motu Proprio
    Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, issued 18 June 1967, the following should be
    especially recalled: "At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, who receive
    the laying on of hands 'not unto priesthood, but only for a ministry service'
    (Constitutions of the Church of Egypt 3, 2). Strengthened by sacramental grace,
    they have as their service for the people of God, in communion with the bishop
    and his college of presbyters, the diakonia of liturgy, word, and charity." [8]
    In the ordination of deacons a few changes had to be made to satisfy the recent
    prescriptions about the diaconate as a distinct and permanent grade of the
    hierarchy in the Latin Church or to achieve a greater simplicity and clarity in
    the rites.

    Among the other docuмents of the magisterium pertaining to sacred orders, we
    consider one worthy of particular mention, namely, the Apostolic Constitution
    Sacramentum Ordinis published by our predecessor, Pius Xll, 30 November 1947. In
    this Constitution he declared that "the sole matter of the sacred orders of
    diaconate and presbyterate is the laying on of hands; likewise the sole form is
    the words determine, the application of this matter, which unequivocally signify
    the sacramental effects--namely, the power of orders and the grace of the Holy
    Spirit and are accepted and used as such by the Church." [9] After this, the
    docuмent determines which laying on of hands and which words constitute the
    matter and form in the conferring of each order. It was necessary in the
    revision of the rite to add, delete, or change certain things, in order to
    restore the texts of the rite to the form they had in antiquity, to clarify
    expressions, or to bring out more clearly the effects of the sacraments. We
    therefore think it necessary, so as to remove all controversy and avoid
    perplexity of conscience, to declare what are to be held as the essentials in
    each revised rite. By our supreme apostolic authority we decree and establish
    the following with regard to the matter and form in the conferring of each
    order:

    In the ordination of deacons, the matter is the laying of the bishop's hands on
    the individual candidates that is done in silence before the consecratory
    prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    Lord,
    send forth upon them the Holy Spirit,
    that they be strengthened
    by the gift of your sevenfold grace
    to carry out faithfully the work of the ministry.

    In the ordination of presbyters, the matter is likewise the laying of the
    bishop's hands on the individual candidates that is done in silence before the
    consecratory prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer,
    of which the following belongs to the essence and are consequently required for
    validity:

    Almighty Father,
    grant to these servants of yours
    the dignity of the priesthood.
    Renew within them the Spirit of holiness.
    As co-workers with the order of bishops
    may they be faithful to the ministry
    that they receive from you, Lord God,
    and be to others a model of right conduct.

    Finally, in the ordination of a bishop, the matter is the laying of hands on the
    head of the bishop-elect by the consecrating bishops, or at least by the
    principal consecrator, that is done in silence before the consecratory prayer;
    the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    So now pour out upon this chosen one
    that power which is from you,
    the governing Spirit
    whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ,
    the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles,
    who founded the Church in every place to be your temple
    for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

    This rite for the conferring of the orders of diaconate, presbyterate, and
    episcopate has been revised by the Consilium for the Implementation of the
    Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "with the employment of experts and with the
    consultation of bishops, from various parts of the world." [10] By our apostolic
    authority we approve this rite so that it may be used in the future for the
    conferral of these orders in place of the rite now found in the Roman
    Pontifical.

    It is our will that these our decrees and prescriptions be firm and effective
    now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic
    constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors and other prescriptions,
    even those deserving particular mention and amendment.

    Given at Rome, at Saint Peter's, 18 June 1968, the fifth year of our
    pontificate.

    Paul VI


    Endnotes
    ---------------------------------
    1. See SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].
    2. SC art. 76 [DOL 1 no. 76].
    3. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    4. SC art. 21 [DOL 1 no. 21].
    5. See LG no. 21 [DOL 4 no. 145].
    6. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    7. PO no. 1: AAs 58 (1966) 991; ConstDecrDecl 619-620.
    8. LG no. 29 [DOL 4 no. 149].
    9. AAS 40 (1948) 6.
    10. SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].
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    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 11:30:39 PM »
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  • Here's his justification for changing "extreme unction" into "annointing of the sick": http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19721130_sacram-unctionem_en.html

    And his promulgation of the Novus Ordo missal: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum_en.html
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 06:43:00 AM »
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  • Even if  these themes are already present in the rite of episcopal consecration, it still seems that they must be better and more precisely expressed.

    When I read things like this it makes my blood boil.

    It's as if the Church just didn't have it right for hundreds of years!

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 07:17:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    He justifies it by saying that since Vatican II called for revision of the liturgy, ergo all sacraments should be revised!
    Quote
    Pontificalis Romani recognitio - Approval of New Rites of Ordination
    ---------------------------------
    Promulgated June 18, 1968
    Apostolic Constitution
    Paul, Bishop
    Servant of the Servants of God for an Everlasting Memorial
    ---------------------------------
    The revision of the Roman Pontifical is prescribed in a general way by the
    Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council [1] and is also governed by the specific
    conciliar directive ordering the revision of "both the ceremonies and texts" of
    the ordination rites. [2]

    Among the rites of ordination the first to be considered are those that
    constitute the hierarchy through the sacrament of orders, conferred in its
    several degrees. "The divinely established eclesiastical ministry is exercised
    at different levels by those who from antiquity have been called bishops,
    ####, and deacons." [3]

    The revision of the rites for ordinations is to follow the general principles
    that must direct the entire reform of the Liturgy according to the decrees of
    Vatican Council II. But in addition a supreme criterion for that revision must
    be the dear teaching of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church concerning the
    nature and effects of the sacrament of orders. This teaching must of course
    receive expression through the Liturgy itself in its own way, because "the texts
    and rites should be so drawn up that they express more clearly the holy things
    they signify and that the Christian people, as hr as possible, are able to
    understand them with ease and to take part in the rites fully, actively, and as
    befits a community." [4]

    The Council teaches that episcopal consecration bestows the fullness of the
    sacrament of orders, that fullness of power, namely, which in both the Church's
    liturgical practice and the language of the Fathers is called the high
    priesthood, the summit of the sacred ministry. But episcopal consecration,
    together with the of office of sanctifying also confers the offices of teaching
    and governing offices that of their very nature can be exercised only in
    hierarchic communion with the head of the college and its members. For from
    tradition, expressed especially in Liturgical rites and in the usage of the
    Church of both East and West, it is dear that the laying on of hands and the
    words of consecration bestow the grace of the Holy Spirit and impress a sacred
    character in such a way that bishops in an eminent and visible way carry on the
    role of Christ himself as teacher, shepherd, and high priest and act in his
    person. [5]

    To these words must be added a number of important doctrinal points concerning
    the apostolic succession of bishops and their functions and duties. Even if
    these themes are already present in the rite of episcopal consecration, it still
    seems that they must be better and more precisely expressed. To ensure this, it
    was judged appropriate to take from ancient sources the consecratory prayer that
    is found in the docuмent called the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome,
    written at the beginning of the third century. This consecratory prayer is still
    used, in large part, in the ordination rites of the Coptic and West Syrian
    liturgies. Thus in the very act of ordination there is a witness to the harmony
    of tradition in East and West concerning the apostolic office of bishops.

    With regard to ####, the following should be especially recalled from the
    acts of the Council: "Even though they do not possess the fullness of the
    priesthood and in the exercise of their power are subordinate to the bishops,
    priests are nevertheless linked to the bishops in priestly dignity. By virtue of
    the sacrament of orders, in the image of Christ the eternal High Priest (see
    Heb 5:1-10 and 7-24, 9:11-28), they are consecrated to preach the Gospel, to
    shepherd the faithful, and to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the
    New Testament." [6] Elsewhere the Council says: "By ordination and the mission
    they receive from the bishops, #### are promoted to the service of Christ
    the Teacher, Priest, and King. They share in his ministry of unceasingly
    building up the Church on earth into the people of God, the Body of Christ, and
    the temple of the Holy Spirit." [7] In the ordination of ####, as formerly
    given in the Roman Pontifical, the mission and grace of the #### as a
    helper of the episcopal order were very clearly described. Yet it seemed
    necessary to reduce the entire rite, which had been divided into several parts,
    to a greater unity and to express more strikingly the central part of the
    ordination, that is, the laying on of hands and the consecratory prayer.

    Finally, with regard to deacons, in addition to the content of our Motu Proprio
    Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, issued 18 June 1967, the following should be
    especially recalled: "At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, who receive
    the laying on of hands 'not unto priesthood, but only for a ministry service'
    (Constitutions of the Church of Egypt 3, 2). Strengthened by sacramental grace,
    they have as their service for the people of God, in communion with the bishop
    and his college of ####, the diakonia of liturgy, word, and charity." [8]
    In the ordination of deacons a few changes had to be made to satisfy the recent
    prescriptions about the diaconate as a distinct and permanent grade of the
    hierarchy in the Latin Church or to achieve a greater simplicity and clarity in
    the rites.

    Among the other docuмents of the magisterium pertaining to sacred orders, we
    consider one worthy of particular mention, namely, the Apostolic Constitution
    Sacramentum Ordinis published by our predecessor, Pius Xll, 30 November 1947. In
    this Constitution he declared that "the sole matter of the sacred orders of
    diaconate and ####ate is the laying on of hands; likewise the sole form is
    the words determine, the application of this matter, which unequivocally signify
    the sacramental effects--namely, the power of orders and the grace of the Holy
    Spirit and are accepted and used as such by the Church." [9] After this, the
    docuмent determines which laying on of hands and which words constitute the
    matter and form in the conferring of each order. It was necessary in the
    revision of the rite to add, delete, or change certain things, in order to
    restore the texts of the rite to the form they had in antiquity, to clarify
    expressions, or to bring out more clearly the effects of the sacraments. We
    therefore think it necessary, so as to remove all controversy and avoid
    perplexity of conscience, to declare what are to be held as the essentials in
    each revised rite. By our supreme apostolic authority we decree and establish
    the following with regard to the matter and form in the conferring of each
    order:

    In the ordination of deacons, the matter is the laying of the bishop's hands on
    the individual candidates that is done in silence before the consecratory
    prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    Lord,
    send forth upon them the Holy Spirit,
    that they be strengthened
    by the gift of your sevenfold grace
    to carry out faithfully the work of the ministry.

    In the ordination of ####, the matter is likewise the laying of the
    bishop's hands on the individual candidates that is done in silence before the
    consecratory prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer,
    of which the following belongs to the essence and are consequently required for
    validity:

    Almighty Father,
    grant to these servants of yours
    the dignity of the priesthood.
    Renew within them the Spirit of holiness.
    As co-workers with the order of bishops
    may they be faithful to the ministry
    that they receive from you, Lord God,
    and be to others a model of right conduct.

    Finally, in the ordination of a bishop, the matter is the laying of hands on the
    head of the bishop-elect by the consecrating bishops, or at least by the
    principal consecrator, that is done in silence before the consecratory prayer;
    the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    So now pour out upon this chosen one
    that power which is from you,
    the governing Spirit
    whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ,
    the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles,
    who founded the Church in every place to be your temple
    for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

    This rite for the conferring of the orders of diaconate, ####ate, and
    episcopate has been revised by the Consilium for the Implementation of the
    Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "with the employment of experts and with the
    consultation of bishops, from various parts of the world." [10] By our apostolic
    authority we approve this rite so that it may be used in the future for the
    conferral of these orders in place of the rite now found in the Roman
    Pontifical.

    It is our will that these our decrees and prescriptions be firm and effective
    now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic
    constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors and other prescriptions,
    even those deserving particular mention and amendment.

    Given at Rome, at Saint Peter's, 18 June 1968, the fifth year of our
    pontificate.

    Paul VI


    Endnotes
    ---------------------------------
    1. See SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].
    2. SC art. 76 [DOL 1 no. 76].
    3. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    4. SC art. 21 [DOL 1 no. 21].
    5. See LG no. 21 [DOL 4 no. 145].
    6. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    7. PO no. 1: AAs 58 (1966) 991; ConstDecrDecl 619-620.
    8. LG no. 29 [DOL 4 no. 149].
    9. AAS 40 (1948) 6.
    10. SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].


    Notice not one mention of sacrifice/sacrificial when speaking about priests.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 10:18:25 AM »
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  • Here's his justification for changing "extreme unction" into "annointing of the sick": http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19721130_sacram-unctionem_en.html

    And his promulgation of the Novus Ordo missal: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum_en.html

    He even mentions Quo Primum!
    Quote from: Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on the New Missal
    One ought not to think, however, that this revision of the Roman Missal has been improvident. The progress that the liturgical sciences has accomplished in the last four centuries has, without a doubt, prepared the way. After the Council of Trent, the study "of ancient manuscripts of the Vatican library and of others gathered elsewhere," as Our predecessor, St. Pius V, indicates in the Apostolic Constitution Quo primum, has greatly helped for the revision of the Roman Missal. Since then, however, more ancient liturgical sources have been discovered and published and at the same time liturgical formulas of the Oriental Church have become better known. Many wish that the riches, both doctrinal and spiritual, might not be hidden in the darkness of the libraries, but on the contrary might be brought into the light to illumine and nourish the spirits and souls of Christians.
    Yet, this isn't true; the new parts of the New Mass (esp. the new Eucharistic prayers) do not come from manuscripts, but are a "banal, on-the-spot product".

    Also, see this from Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution:
    Quote from: Paul VI on the New Missal
    … The beginning of this renewal was the work of Our predecessor, this same Pius XII, in the restoration of the Paschal Vigil and of the Holy Week Rite, which formed the first stage of updating the Roman Missal for the present-day mentality.
    Was that really Pope Pius XII's intention?

    Paul VI is very overt about how the Mass God gave us should be changed for man! If this isn't Modernism, what is?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 11:53:49 PM »
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  • .

    I have done an informal, personal poll of many traditional priests, asking them this question, "What good reason could there ever have been for changing the form of the sacraments:  Holy Orders, Episcopal Consecration, Confirmation and Extreme Unction?"  Every single priest I have asked has assured me that there was ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON, in fact some told me there weren't any reasons of any kind, except EVIL reasons.

    So this is a good topic.  

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 09:42:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .I have done an informal, personal poll of many traditional priests, asking them this question, "What good reason could there ever have been for changing the form of the sacraments:  Holy Orders, Episcopal Consecration, Confirmation and Extreme Unction?"  Every single priest I have asked has assured me that there was ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON, in fact some told me there weren't any reasons of any kind, except EVIL reasons.
    If you believe Infinite Perfection instituted the sacraments, then how could man make them better by changing them?
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 08:46:44 AM »
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  • They watered down sacraments.  Also, Vatican II and secular society has been working
    Hard to promote sin, ignorant, faithless , lost souls.  

    They are working hard to justify sins and apostacy.

    It is up to all of us including our clergy to take hammer to these herectics.   :fryingpan: or frying pan.
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 01:20:09 PM »
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  • Even though I will not contest the validity of the novus ordo sacraments.
    The reason I say this is that I an no theologian, I have heard both
    sides, and each sides sounds convincing.
    We all agree they are much inferior than the traditional sacraments.
    They do not give the same graces as the traditional sacraments.
    For example here in the Houston area, for a Catholic to received
    the novus ordo sacrament of Confirmation, you have to be signed
    off by a Protestant minister, and a Jєωιѕн Rabbi. So much in
    defending the faith like it was when I was confirmed in 1962.
    The novus ordo sacraments  just to make you feel good, and
    not be  conscience of an every present God. You are more focus
    on the things of the world than the afterlife that will come upon
    us sooner than we expect.
    It is just like demolishing a beautiful gothic church in which that
    you cannot help in thinking about God, and the afterlife. And
    replacing the church with a Gymnasium style building, that just
    makes you think of worldly things. The sanctuary that looks no
    different than a masonic hall.

    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #10 on: August 23, 2014, 03:07:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    Even though I will not contest the validity of the novus ordo sacraments.
    The reason I say this is that I an no theologian, I have heard both
    sides, and each sides sounds convincing.
    We all agree they are much inferior than the traditional sacraments.
    They do not give the same graces as the traditional sacraments.
    For example here in the Houston area, for a Catholic to received
    the novus ordo sacrament of Confirmation, you have to be signed
    off by a Protestant minister, and a Jєωιѕн Rabbi.
    That should be a big red flag that the Novus Ordo rites are at least schismatic, if not also invalid.
    Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    So much in
    defending the faith like it was when I was confirmed in 1962.
    The novus ordo sacraments  just to make you feel good, and
    not be  conscience of an every present God. You are more focus
    on the things of the world than the afterlife that will come upon
    us sooner than we expect.
    It is just like demolishing a beautiful gothic church in which that
    you cannot help in thinking about God, and the afterlife. And
    replacing the church with a Gymnasium style building, that just
    makes you think of worldly things. The sanctuary that looks no
    different than a masonic hall.
    There are even more overtly Masonic "Catholic" "churches"; see this.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre


    Offline poche

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 09:19:39 AM »
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  • Pope Paul VI did not devise any new sacraments.

    Offline Geremia

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 09:33:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Pope Paul VI did not devise any new sacraments.
    He uses the world "novelty" himself to describe what he devised.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline poche

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 09:46:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Geremia
    He justifies it by saying that since Vatican II called for revision of the liturgy, ergo all sacraments should be revised!
    Quote
    Pontificalis Romani recognitio - Approval of New Rites of Ordination
    ---------------------------------
    Promulgated June 18, 1968
    Apostolic Constitution
    Paul, Bishop
    Servant of the Servants of God for an Everlasting Memorial
    ---------------------------------
    The revision of the Roman Pontifical is prescribed in a general way by the
    Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council [1] and is also governed by the specific
    conciliar directive ordering the revision of "both the ceremonies and texts" of
    the ordination rites. [2]

    Among the rites of ordination the first to be considered are those that
    constitute the hierarchy through the sacrament of orders, conferred in its
    several degrees. "The divinely established eclesiastical ministry is exercised
    at different levels by those who from antiquity have been called bishops,
    ####, and deacons." [3]

    The revision of the rites for ordinations is to follow the general principles
    that must direct the entire reform of the Liturgy according to the decrees of
    Vatican Council II. But in addition a supreme criterion for that revision must
    be the dear teaching of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church concerning the
    nature and effects of the sacrament of orders. This teaching must of course
    receive expression through the Liturgy itself in its own way, because "the texts
    and rites should be so drawn up that they express more clearly the holy things
    they signify and that the Christian people, as hr as possible, are able to
    understand them with ease and to take part in the rites fully, actively, and as
    befits a community." [4]

    The Council teaches that episcopal consecration bestows the fullness of the
    sacrament of orders, that fullness of power, namely, which in both the Church's
    liturgical practice and the language of the Fathers is called the high
    priesthood, the summit of the sacred ministry. But episcopal consecration,
    together with the of office of sanctifying also confers the offices of teaching
    and governing offices that of their very nature can be exercised only in
    hierarchic communion with the head of the college and its members. For from
    tradition, expressed especially in Liturgical rites and in the usage of the
    Church of both East and West, it is dear that the laying on of hands and the
    words of consecration bestow the grace of the Holy Spirit and impress a sacred
    character in such a way that bishops in an eminent and visible way carry on the
    role of Christ himself as teacher, shepherd, and high priest and act in his
    person. [5]

    To these words must be added a number of important doctrinal points concerning
    the apostolic succession of bishops and their functions and duties. Even if
    these themes are already present in the rite of episcopal consecration, it still
    seems that they must be better and more precisely expressed. To ensure this, it
    was judged appropriate to take from ancient sources the consecratory prayer that
    is found in the docuмent called the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome,
    written at the beginning of the third century. This consecratory prayer is still
    used, in large part, in the ordination rites of the Coptic and West Syrian
    liturgies. Thus in the very act of ordination there is a witness to the harmony
    of tradition in East and West concerning the apostolic office of bishops.

    With regard to ####, the following should be especially recalled from the
    acts of the Council: "Even though they do not possess the fullness of the
    priesthood and in the exercise of their power are subordinate to the bishops,
    priests are nevertheless linked to the bishops in priestly dignity. By virtue of
    the sacrament of orders, in the image of Christ the eternal High Priest (see
    Heb 5:1-10 and 7-24, 9:11-28), they are consecrated to preach the Gospel, to
    shepherd the faithful, and to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the
    New Testament." [6] Elsewhere the Council says: "By ordination and the mission
    they receive from the bishops, #### are promoted to the service of Christ
    the Teacher, Priest, and King. They share in his ministry of unceasingly
    building up the Church on earth into the people of God, the Body of Christ, and
    the temple of the Holy Spirit." [7] In the ordination of ####, as formerly
    given in the Roman Pontifical, the mission and grace of the #### as a
    helper of the episcopal order were very clearly described. Yet it seemed
    necessary to reduce the entire rite, which had been divided into several parts,
    to a greater unity and to express more strikingly the central part of the
    ordination, that is, the laying on of hands and the consecratory prayer.

    Finally, with regard to deacons, in addition to the content of our Motu Proprio
    Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, issued 18 June 1967, the following should be
    especially recalled: "At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, who receive
    the laying on of hands 'not unto priesthood, but only for a ministry service'
    (Constitutions of the Church of Egypt 3, 2). Strengthened by sacramental grace,
    they have as their service for the people of God, in communion with the bishop
    and his college of ####, the diakonia of liturgy, word, and charity." [8]
    In the ordination of deacons a few changes had to be made to satisfy the recent
    prescriptions about the diaconate as a distinct and permanent grade of the
    hierarchy in the Latin Church or to achieve a greater simplicity and clarity in
    the rites.

    Among the other docuмents of the magisterium pertaining to sacred orders, we
    consider one worthy of particular mention, namely, the Apostolic Constitution
    Sacramentum Ordinis published by our predecessor, Pius Xll, 30 November 1947. In
    this Constitution he declared that "the sole matter of the sacred orders of
    diaconate and ####ate is the laying on of hands; likewise the sole form is
    the words determine, the application of this matter, which unequivocally signify
    the sacramental effects--namely, the power of orders and the grace of the Holy
    Spirit and are accepted and used as such by the Church." [9] After this, the
    docuмent determines which laying on of hands and which words constitute the
    matter and form in the conferring of each order. It was necessary in the
    revision of the rite to add, delete, or change certain things, in order to
    restore the texts of the rite to the form they had in antiquity, to clarify
    expressions, or to bring out more clearly the effects of the sacraments. We
    therefore think it necessary, so as to remove all controversy and avoid
    perplexity of conscience, to declare what are to be held as the essentials in
    each revised rite. By our supreme apostolic authority we decree and establish
    the following with regard to the matter and form in the conferring of each
    order:

    In the ordination of deacons, the matter is the laying of the bishop's hands on
    the individual candidates that is done in silence before the consecratory
    prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    Lord,
    send forth upon them the Holy Spirit,
    that they be strengthened
    by the gift of your sevenfold grace
    to carry out faithfully the work of the ministry.

    In the ordination of ####, the matter is likewise the laying of the
    bishop's hands on the individual candidates that is done in silence before the
    consecratory prayer; the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer,
    of which the following belongs to the essence and are consequently required for
    validity:

    Almighty Father,
    grant to these servants of yours
    the dignity of the priesthood.
    Renew within them the Spirit of holiness.
    As co-workers with the order of bishops
    may they be faithful to the ministry
    that they receive from you, Lord God,
    and be to others a model of right conduct.

    Finally, in the ordination of a bishop, the matter is the laying of hands on the
    head of the bishop-elect by the consecrating bishops, or at least by the
    principal consecrator, that is done in silence before the consecratory prayer;
    the form consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the
    following belong to the essence and are consequently required for validity:

    So now pour out upon this chosen one
    that power which is from you,
    the governing Spirit
    whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ,
    the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles,
    who founded the Church in every place to be your temple
    for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

    This rite for the conferring of the orders of diaconate, ####ate, and
    episcopate has been revised by the Consilium for the Implementation of the
    Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "with the employment of experts and with the
    consultation of bishops, from various parts of the world." [10] By our apostolic
    authority we approve this rite so that it may be used in the future for the
    conferral of these orders in place of the rite now found in the Roman
    Pontifical.

    It is our will that these our decrees and prescriptions be firm and effective
    now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic
    constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors and other prescriptions,
    even those deserving particular mention and amendment.

    Given at Rome, at Saint Peter's, 18 June 1968, the fifth year of our
    pontificate.

    Paul VI


    Endnotes
    ---------------------------------
    1. See SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].
    2. SC art. 76 [DOL 1 no. 76].
    3. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    4. SC art. 21 [DOL 1 no. 21].
    5. See LG no. 21 [DOL 4 no. 145].
    6. LG no. 28 [DOL 4 no. 148].
    7. PO no. 1: AAs 58 (1966) 991; ConstDecrDecl 619-620.
    8. LG no. 29 [DOL 4 no. 149].
    9. AAS 40 (1948) 6.
    10. SC art. 25 [DOL 1 no. 25].


    Notice not one mention of sacrifice/sacrificial when speaking about priests.

    That doesn't mean that the Mass is not a sacrifice.

    Offline poche

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    Paul VIs justification for new sacraments?
    « Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 10:40:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    Even though I will not contest the validity of the novus ordo sacraments.
    The reason I say this is that I an no theologian, I have heard both
    sides, and each sides sounds convincing.
    We all agree they are much inferior than the traditional sacraments.
    They do not give the same graces as the traditional sacraments.
    For example here in the Houston area, for a Catholic to received
    the novus ordo sacrament of Confirmation, you have to be signed
    off by a Protestant minister, and a Jєωιѕн Rabbi. So much in
    defending the faith like it was when I was confirmed in 1962.
    The novus ordo sacraments  just to make you feel good, and
    not be  conscience of an every present God. You are more focus
    on the things of the world than the afterlife that will come upon
    us sooner than we expect.
    It is just like demolishing a beautiful gothic church in which that
    you cannot help in thinking about God, and the afterlife. And
    replacing the church with a Gymnasium style building, that just
    makes you think of worldly things. The sanctuary that looks no
    different than a masonic hall.

    Where I live, the catechists decide who is ready to make their first communion or the Sacrament of Confirmation. We don't allow Protestant ministers to tell us what to do.