Author Topic: Paul VI "canonized" (Read 4388 times)

Beaumont · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 2018, 08:37:52 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on October 15, 2018, 05:28:50 PM

Correct, you may follow some theologians in holding that the infallibility of canonizations is only theologically certain and not de fide. Consequently, you are merely committing a mortal sin in rejecting it and are not a heretic in the strict sense of the word.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 2018, 08:38:55 PM »

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Your quote from the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"The question also whether canonized saints really die in the odour of sanctity is connected with dogma, for every one who dies in the odour of sanctity is saved."
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---- Is this what is meant by the "odour of sanctity? ----

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Quote from: Neil Obstat on Mon Oct 15 2018 15:14:00 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
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This really stinks.
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https://novusordowatch.org/2018/10/tribute-to-saint-paul6/
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NovusOrdoWatch.org calls attention to the fan on the right...
.

Original Caption: “A top view of inside St. Peter’s Basilica 8/10 (^close-up of corruption personified!^)
as thousands of faithful queue up along the central aisle to see
the body of Pope Paul VI as he lies in state.”
.
(We went through the rather expensive process of obtaining the rights to be allowed to display this picture in full, and we hope our readers benefit from it.)
This embarrassing turn of events naturally did not go unnoticed. TIME Magazine reported that Montini’s body had to get an extra supply of formaldehyde to slow down the decomposition process that had already set in:
Paul VI’s biographer, Peter Hebblethwaite, relates the following about Montini’s death: “As Mass ends Paul has a massive heart attack. It is as though he had exploded from within. [Rev. John] Magee thinks he would have been thrown out of bed had his hand not been held” ( [New York, NY: Paulist Press, 1993], p. 710).

Another interesting point to note is that Paul VI’s body began to turn dark as he was lying in state. This phenomenon was quite visible, and a close-up cutout of the above shows it:

We suspect that out of all the images the Vatican will present for their new “Saint” Paul VI, pictures of his rotting, stinking, discolored corpse will not be among them, hence we are happy to help out.

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A comment by "Daniel":
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Avatar
Daniel • a day ago
Our Lady of Sorrows pray for us, Our Lady Destroyer of Heresies pray for us.

The smoke of Satan has indeed filled the Church of the Anti-Christ, the Novus Ordo Church. These poor souls will now be praying to their 'Saint' Paul VI just as I had been praying daily in a Novus Ordo 'Adoration Chapel' prior to October 2016 to their Novus Ordo 'Saints' John XXIII and John Paul II. We Catholics who know the truth must persevere in praying, fasting and doing all we can to lead as many of these poor souls as we can out of the fog of modernism into the light of the traditional Catholic faith and religion. The only antidote for the poison of modernism is to hold fast to tradition.

May God have mercy on us all. One would hope that the 'canonization' of Montini would wake up a few more souls but modernism is the 'deception par excellence' and few souls will recognize it for what it truly is. I didn't leave the Novus Ordo due to the discovery of modernism that came much later. I didn't know about the modernism of the Vatican II 'Popes' until after leaving the Novus Ordo. One cannot see clearly when one is immersed in the fog of modernism. I first recognized and rejected the false teachings of Bergoglio and then began to diligently study the history of the Catholic religion. After this study it became clear to me that a metamorphosis had transpired after Vatican II.

I was born, raised, indoctrinated and practiced this false religion for 58 years so what woke me up to the truth? Forty years of daily rosary led me out of the Novus Ordo modernist fog. Thanks be to Our Lord Jesus Christ and the intercession of our Blessed Mother Mary.

Thanks be to God for all those Catholics who didn't abandon the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but instead held fast to tradition following the Vatican II takeover by the modernists. Where would I be today if they hadn't been faithful? The modernist clerics handed my parents over to the modernists, I was subsequently handed over by my parents to the modernists and then I handed my children over to the modernists. Two generations of indoctrinated modernists are now part of history.

What should we think now of these young people attending the Novus Ordo 'Youth Synod', led by their Novus Ordo Pope, gifted by these same Novus Ordo youth with a witches stang to use for his Papal ferula? Now they will pray to their Novus Ordo 'Saint Paul VI' for deliverance from evil? They will try to imitate his supposed life of heroic virtue? Do they not know what kind of an evil man this 'saint' really was, how this modernist has been instrumental in the crucifixion and death of the mystical body of Christ? Yes, I believe most Catholics post Vatican II are already dead spiritually speaking, I was one of them. My resurrection from this spiritual death was obtained through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, discovering the Catholic religion, its teachings, practices and sacraments and then holding fast to them.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us, Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 2018, 08:46:47 PM »

Quote from: Struthio on October 15, 2018, 05:41:41 PM

Do you refer to him as such?

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Thank you for asking. Sometimes I slip up and say "pope" but I try to be consistent and stick to what he prefers, Bishop-of-Rome (although I take liberty in adding the hyphens, but it sounds the same when spoken, so who knows, maybe he's okay with the hyphens?).

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #48 on:** October 15, 2018, 08:53:22 PM »

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Remember little Jacinta of Fatima, who went to great lengths to do penance "for the Holy Father, who will have much to suffer."
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It's up for grabs as to just WHAT that suffering would be, as she never really got into that. Nor did she name the Holy Father.
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But Our Lady gave her to know that the Holy Father's suffering would be great, and that by us offering voluntary acts of expiation for the Holy Father, it would somehow reduce his suffering.
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Looking back at what she may have meant, I find it hard to imagine any suffering greater than that suffered by the damned in hell.
.

Struthio · « **Reply #49 on:** October 15, 2018, 10:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on October 15, 2018, 08:46:47 PM

Thank you for asking. Sometimes I slip up and say "pope" but I try to be consistent and stick to what he prefers, Bishop-of-Rome (although I take liberty in adding the hyphens, but it sounds the same when spoken, so who knows, maybe he's okay with the hyphens?).

Do you think that the Bishop of Rome is not the Pope?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #50 on:** October 16, 2018, 09:22:52 PM »

Quote from: Struthio on October 15, 2018, 10:19:36 PM

Do you think that the Bishop of Rome is not the Pope?

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I'm not sedevacantist, if that's what you're trying to get at.
I just like to maintain clarity on what the BoR is saying instead of what others say about him.
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If Bishop-of-Rome Francis thinks he is the Pope, why does he go out of his way to avoid saying so?
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Do you think BoR Francis is a Modernist?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #51 on:** October 16, 2018, 09:49:55 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on October 15, 2018, 05:14:00 PM

.
This really stinks.
.
https://novusordowatch.org/2018/10/tribute-to-saint-paul6/
.
NovusOrdoWatch.org calls attention to the fan on the right...
.

Original Caption: “A top view of inside St. Peter’s Basilica 8/10 (^close-up of corruption personified!^)
as thousands of faithful queue up along the central aisle to see
the body of Pope Paul VI as he lies in state.”
.
(We went through the rather expensive process of obtaining the rights to be allowed to display this picture in full, and we hope our readers benefit from it.)
This embarrassing turn of events naturally did not go unnoticed. TIME Magazine reported that Montini’s body had to get an extra supply of formaldehyde to slow down the decomposition process that had already set in:
Paul VI’s biographer, Peter Hebblethwaite, relates the following about Montini’s death: “As Mass ends Paul has a massive heart attack. It is as though he had exploded from within. [Rev. John] Magee thinks he would have been thrown out of bed had his hand not been held” ( [New York, NY: Paulist Press, 1993], p. 710).

Another interesting point to note is that Paul VI’s body began to turn dark as he was lying in state. This phenomenon was quite visible, and a close-up cutout of the above shows it:

We suspect that out of all the images the Vatican will present for their new “Saint” Paul VI, pictures of his rotting, stinking, discolored corpse will not be among them, hence we are happy to help out.

.
A comment by "Daniel":
.
Avatar
Daniel • a day ago
Our Lady of Sorrows pray for us, Our Lady Destroyer of Heresies pray for us.

The smoke of Satan has indeed filled the Church of the Anti-Christ, the Novus Ordo Church. These poor souls will now be praying to their 'Saint' Paul VI just as I had been praying daily in a Novus Ordo 'Adoration Chapel' prior to October 2016 to their Novus Ordo 'Saints' John XXIII and John Paul II. We Catholics who know the truth must persevere in praying, fasting and doing all we can to lead as many of these poor souls as we can out of the fog of modernism into the light of the traditional Catholic faith and religion. The only antidote for the poison of modernism is to hold fast to tradition.

May God have mercy on us all. One would hope that the 'canonization' of Montini would wake up a few more souls but modernism is the 'deception par excellence' and few souls will recognize it for what it truly is. I didn't leave the Novus Ordo due to the discovery of modernism that came much later. I didn't know about the modernism of the Vatican II 'Popes' until after leaving the Novus Ordo. One cannot see clearly when one is immersed in the fog of modernism. I first recognized and rejected the false teachings of Bergoglio and then began to diligently study the history of the Catholic religion. After this study it became clear to me that a metamorphosis had transpired after Vatican II.

I was born, raised, indoctrinated and practiced this false religion for 58 years so what woke me up to the truth? Forty years of daily rosary led me out of the Novus Ordo modernist fog. Thanks be to Our Lord Jesus Christ and the intercession of our Blessed Mother Mary.

Thanks be to God for all those Catholics who didn't abandon the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but instead held fast to tradition following the Vatican II takeover by the modernists. Where would I be today if they hadn't been faithful? The modernist clerics handed my parents over to the modernists, I was subsequently handed over by my parents to the modernists and then I handed my children over to the modernists. Two generations of indoctrinated modernists are now part of history.

What should we think now of these young people attending the Novus Ordo 'Youth Synod', led by their Novus Ordo Pope, gifted by these same Novus Ordo youth with a witches stang to use for his Papal ferula? Now they will pray to their Novus Ordo 'Saint Paul VI' for deliverance from evil? They will try to imitate his supposed life of heroic virtue? Do they not know what kind of an evil man this 'saint' really was, how this modernist has been instrumental in the crucifixion and death of the mystical body of Christ? Yes, I believe most Catholics post Vatican II are already dead spiritually speaking, I was one of them. My resurrection from this spiritual death was obtained through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, discovering the Catholic religion, its teachings, practices and sacraments and then holding fast to them.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us, Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us.

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The same web page quoted above has a wonderful feature.
In fact, the quote above is the SECOND PART of the "tribute" and what's below is from the First Part!
It provides a list of 50 titles or namesakes that apply to Paul VI, a.k.a. Montini.
It seems to me that there is no one else in the history of the world, to whom all these titles apply so well!
.
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Of course, we will now be inundated with all sorts of smart blog posts, articles, and veritable treatises from the recognize-and-resist crowd (those who consider themselves traditional Catholics but accept the Novus Ordo popes as valid while rejecting their Modernist teachings and laws) to assure us either that (1) the canonization of Paul VI was not infallible; or that (2) Paul VI is indeed a saint, but this doesn’t really mean anything other than that he, through a miracle of grace, was able to save his soul at the last minute and thus attained to the Beatific Vision. In other words: If Catholicism contradicts their position, they will simply tweak Catholicism until it fits.
Meanwhile, however, we have decided to pay our own respects to this Monster of Modernism, the Unholy Paul VI. Let the following two tidbits be a well-deserved “tribute” to this latest Novus Ordo “saint”, whom people unhappily caught up in the Conciliar Sect will now invoke as an intercessor, pay him homage, offer “Mass” in his honor, and venerate him as though he had been an exemplar of Catholic Faith and virtue, when in all likelihood this soul-destroying perverter of Catholicism is currently burning in the lowest pits of hell.
We begin, therefore, with a little “Litany to Saint Paul VI”, a list of 50 outrageous titles that can justly be applied to this new anti-saint.

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The idea, of course, is not to ask anyone to use this for an actual litany (God forbid!*), but rather to point out vividly the absurdity of taking this wicked man for a saint of the Catholic Church.
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*[Their version has lower case letters in many places but I tried this, below, with capital letters for the proper names and I think it looks better -- they might have done that at NovusOrdoWatch except then perhaps they feared someone copying it might "use this for an actual litany."]

“St.” Paul VI was the…
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Destroyer of the Sacraments
Architect of the Novus Ordo Missae
Deformer of the Curia
Captain of Collegiality
Councilor of Heresy
Admirer of False Religions
Cheerleader for the United Nations
Patron of Sodomites
Prideful Profaner
Betrayer of Catholics
Friend of Communists
Mocker of the Faith
Wretched Revolutionary
Commissioner of the Broken Cross
Father of Wreckovations
Lover of Ugliness
Spiritual Arsonist
Dispenser of the Smoke of Satan
Polluter of Souls
Ardent Oathbreaker
Wearer of the Ephod
Friend of the тαℓмυdists
Star of David
High Priest of Noahidism
Father of the New Evangelization
Artisan of Evil
Putrid Calla Lily
Doctor Haereticus
Father of Apostates
Returner of the Standard of Lepanto
Worshipful Master of Auto-demolition
Wizard of Wickedness
Peddler of the Tiara
Eliminator of Saints
Odious Obscurer of Light
Key Holder of the Bottomless Pit
Trumpeter of the Apocalypse
Sedulous Promoter of the Cult of Man
Notorious Offspring of Lucifer
Tower of Babel
Son of Perdition
Man of Sin
Brooding Viper
Whitened Sepulcher
Cause of our Sorrows
Insidiuous Inverter of Values
Diabolically Disoriented
Deceiver of Billions
Perverse Corrupter of Souls
Precursor of Bergoglio

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It probably will not take long before someone in the Novus Ordo Sect comes up with a litany to Paul VI, although we suspect it won’t contain any of these titles.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #52 on:** October 16, 2018, 10:09:20 PM »

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The comments are interesting:
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130 Comments
Novus Ordo Watch

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anna mack • 2 days ago
Only one word for this: obscene.

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Rube • 2 days ago
It's like Hollywood and their award events - just keep patting themselves on the back for their scourge to souls.

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Dum Spiro Spero • 2 days ago
Paul VI's ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a very serious issue. Especially considering that several ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs among bishops in his time progressed very quickly in the hierarchy. Why?

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George Dum Spiro Spero • 2 days ago
Buggery is what the Vatican II church is all about.

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BurningEagle Dum Spiro Spero • 2 days ago
His perfidy is way more serious. We have had morally corrupt popes in the past, but never non-Catholic "popes," such as Roncalli, Montini, ff.

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BurningEagle • 2 days ago
I am so happy today. I am glad Jorge gave us another certain and infallible sign that he and his Church CANNOT be Catholic.

I cannot wait for female deacons (deaconettes?).

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Pretty Lady! BurningEagle • 2 days ago
I know someone, when I was in the no and arguing about Amoris latitsea, who said that female deconstruct would push him over the edge. But I doubt it. They are in too deep now.

A conservative no acquaintance, when I sent her something about Francis, said he was doing a great deal of good by bringing up the devil so much!

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BurningEagle Pretty Lady! • 2 days ago
For the most part, Novus Ordites have no clue, and do not care.

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Pretty Lady! BurningEagle • 2 days ago
I’m tired of regarding them as being of good will, or trying to be faithful Catholics. They hate the idea that the Catholic Church condemns religious liberty, they hate the idea that protestants and schismatics are not separated brethren. They would certainly crucify the church if she were presented to them. And these are the conservatives.

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John D. Horton BurningEagle • a day ago
Novus Ordites = only care about "helping" the Third World with Liberation Theology with US taxpayer's money and not from their own pockets and private charity.

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John D. Horton BurningEagle • a day ago
I can't wait for altar girls showing they are pregnant with a bastard child at age 12.

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Lee • 2 days ago
If Paul VI is a saint, then Judas Iscariot, Nero, Julian the Apostate, the Prophet Mohammed, Montezuma, Martin Luther, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Aleister Crowley, Joseph Stalin, Margaret Sanger, etc. might as well be included. What is the Novus Ordo waiting for?

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George Lee • 2 days ago
Patience, Lee, patience. So many heretics to canonize, and only one anti-pope.
Er, well, I guess there's actually two anti-popes, but you know what I mean.

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J Nelson • 2 days ago
Stench in the nostrils of God

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BurningEagle J Nelson • 2 days ago
...and everyone else's

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George • 2 days ago
I can't wait to see the first Saint Paul VI Cathedral. It's sure to be a real beauty.

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Pretty Lady! George • 2 days ago
There is a Paul vi high school in my area.

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BurningEagle Pretty Lady! • 2 days ago
You should take your dog for walks there, and have him do dumpies in the school yard. If you don't have a dog, perhaps you should get one.
Suggestion: Cane Corso.

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SkatinWithoutaStick BurningEagle • 2 days ago
I always wanted to get a great dane or a mastiff and name him Egypt; everywhere he'd go, he'd make a pyramid.

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BurningEagle SkatinWithoutaStick • a day ago
She could name her dog Montini. Everywhere Montini goes, he leaves a pile of excrement.

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SkatinWithoutaStick BurningEagle • 13 hours ago
Lol. Nicely played.

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CharlesMartel George • a day ago
Wouldn't you rather be waiting for the Saint Francis of Buenos Aires (infallibly proclaimed by the Vatican III council to be a greater saint than Saint Francis of Assisi) to be completed? That cathedral is certain to be even more magnificent!

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Jeremias • 2 days ago
8 Thus he that seemed to himself to command even the waves of the sea, being proud above the condition of man, and to weigh the heights of the mountains in a balance, now being cast down to the ground, was carried in a litter, bearing witness to the manifest power of God in himself:
9 So that worms swarmed out of the body of this man, and whilst he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell off, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome to the army.
10 And the man that thought a little before he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry, for the intolerable stench.
2 Machabees 9:8-10

Queen of the most holy Rosary, pray for us!
Queen of all Saints, pray for us!
St. Paul the Apostle, pray for us!
Pope St. Callistus I, pray for us!
Pope St. Pius X, pray for us!

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Ginger • 2 days ago
The abomination of desolation was complete on 4/27/14 (4+2=6 7-1=6 1+1+4=6) 666 when we were forced to honor the BEAST in the Mass. Any Priest who honors Roncalli, Montin and Wojtyla in their Mass makes there MASS invalid. Soon our true HIDDEN Pope will be brought to the forefront by the very HOLY French Monarch. Praise the Lord for HIS FINAL VICTORY! (Today's Catholic World TCW is possibly MASONIC so BEWARE!) Let us pray in union with our HIDDEN HOLY FATHER who has suffered much for GOD's True Church. (read Marie Julie Jahenny prophecies)

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anna mack Ginger • 6 hours ago
Very Holy French Monarch? Macron...?!!

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BurningEagle anna mack • 5 hours ago
You are wasting your time.

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Jeremias • 2 days ago
"Paul VI’s biggest fan!"

LOL! And, "canonized" by the biggest blowhard.

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Daniel • 2 days ago
Our Lady of Sorrows pray for us, Our Lady Destroyer of Heresies pray for us.

The smoke of Satan has indeed filled the Church of the Anti-Christ, the Novus Ordo Church. These poor souls will now be praying to their 'Saint' Paul VI just as I had been praying daily in a Novus Ordo 'Adoration Chapel' prior to October 2016 to their Novus Ordo 'Saints' John XXIII and John Paul II. We Catholics who know the truth must persevere in praying, fasting and doing all we can to lead as many of these poor souls as we can out of the fog of modernism into the light of the traditional Catholic faith and religion. The only antidote for the poison of modernism is to hold fast to tradition.

May God have mercy on us all. One would hope that the 'canonization' of Montini would wake up a few more souls but modernism is the 'deception par excellence' and few souls will recognize it for what it truly is. I didn't leave the Novus Ordo due to the discovery of modernism that came much later. I didn't know about the modernism of the Vatican II 'Popes' until after leaving the Novus Ordo. One cannot see clearly when one is immersed in the fog of modernism. I first recognized and rejected the false teachings of Bergoglio and then began to diligently study the history of the Catholic religion. After this study it became clear to me that a metamorphosis had transpired after Vatican II.

I was born, raised, indoctrinated and practiced this false religion for 58 years so what woke me up to the truth? Forty years of daily rosary led me out of the Novus Ordo modernist fog. Thanks be to Our Lord Jesus Christ and the intercession of our Blessed Mother Mary.

Thanks be to God for all those Catholics who didn't abandon the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but instead held fast to tradition following the Vatican II takeover by the modernists. Where would I be today if they hadn't been faithful? The modernist clerics handed my parents over to the modernists, I was subsequently handed over by my parents to the modernists and then I handed my children over to the modernists. Two generations of indoctrinated modernists are now part of history.

What should we think now of these young people attending the Novus Ordo 'Youth Synod', led by their Novus Ordo Pope, gifted by these same Novus Ordo youth with a witches stang to use for his Papal ferula? Now they will pray to their Novus Ordo 'Saint Paul VI' for deliverance from evil? They will try to imitate his supposed life of heroic virtue? Do they not know what kind of an evil man this 'saint' really was, how this modernist has been instrumental in the crucifixion and death of the mystical body of Christ? Yes, I believe most Catholics post Vatican II are already dead spiritually speaking, I was one of them. My resurrection from this spiritual death was obtained through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, discovering the Catholic religion, its teachings, practices and sacraments and then holding fast to them.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us, Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us.

see more
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Tom A. Daniel • 2 days ago
Glad you made it out, Daniel.

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LuppersMom Daniel • 3 hours ago
Give thanks for your deliverance. It is an unfathomable mercy of God that some have escaped the N.O. Do you sometimes reflect on what an immense gift it is and how much we all have to answer for? We can't be lukewarm or take any part of the Faith for granted.

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2Vermont • 2 days ago
And the R&R folks are touting the "canonizations are not infallible" nonsense again.

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Tom A. 2Vermont • 2 days ago
Yes, they are right on cue, "resisting" their pope.

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Geremia16 2Vermont • 2 days ago
Actually, they're asking "Can a Canonization Be Based on Dubiously-Miraculous “Miracles”?"

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Novus Ordo Watch Mod Geremia16 • 2 days ago
Ah yes, of course. Perhaps Mr. Ferrara does not understand, but the infallibility of a canonization is not based on any miracle or investigative process but on the assistance of the Holy Ghost.

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BurningEagle Geremia16 • 2 days ago
So, a *process* which was invented and instituted by the Church, through legislation of the popes, guarantees the infallibility, but it is not the papacy itself which guarantees the infallibility?
So, a pope cannot change this process of canonization?
These people are grasping at straws. Anything but sedevacantism.

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Pretty Lady! • 2 days ago
I cracked up after I saw the fan! I didn’t know what it was at first, too funny, thank you

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BurningEagle Pretty Lady! • 2 days ago
Remember, when Pee Wee Montini died, Febreze was not invented yet.

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Pretty Lady! • 2 days ago
And thank you for quoting the infallible language. But resisters don’t care.

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Eagle Joe • 2 days ago
Thanks for saying so clearly that yes, the language of the decree of canonization is infallible, and yes, this means that Francis is an impostor, he is not validly Pope.

I am more and more impatient with those who want to make mental loopholes explaining why it's really okay that he did this "because we few intelligent people know that it doesn't really count." How preposterous.

The sooner we have an explicit schism, the better. In the ancient church, a bishop who broke communion would have his name "struck from the diptychs." When will some cardinal or bishop have the courage to strike Francis from the diptychs? To say, no, we are NOT "in union with Francis our Pope" because he is not pope.

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anna mack Eagle Joe • 6 hours ago
Ah, yes, those "few intelligent people". What sort of a church can only teach to a "few intelligent people"?

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BurningEagle • 2 days ago
A good response to your litany titles would be: "Let him be anathema."

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PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
"...biggest fan." Ha! big yuk. Bet you enjoyed setting that one up!

re: #30 returner of the Standard of Lepanto.

I've done a little snooping around the net but have only found bits and pieces. If you have a link w/good info about that please post it. What a betrayal. On many levels.

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BurningEagle PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
The image of Guadalupe from Admiral Doria’s ship is now enshrined in the Church of San Stefano in Aveto, Italy. Don Juan’s papal banner is in the Escorial. Admiral Marco Antonio Colonna’s threadbare standard is in Gaeta’s Pinacoteca Communale. One of Ali Pasha’s banners is in the Church of Santo Stefano in Pisa. Another is in the Palazzo Ducale of Venice. Pasha’s flagship banner decorated with Quranic verses from the 48th surah Al-Fath (The Victory) hung near the tomb of St. Pius V in Santa Maria Maggiore. In 1965 Pope Paul VI attempted a gesture of goodwill by returning it to the Turks. Indulging some apophasis, it is not necessary to comment that Paul VI was not a military man. The gesture was perplexing to those who harbor a memory of sacrificial valor, and it must have been an awkward reminder to descendants of the defeated. The banner now hangs in the Naval Museum of Istanbul.

https://www.crisismagazine....

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Thank you for the info! I will check out the link, also.

This site is, among other things, good for my vocabulary. So far this evening I've had to look up sedulous (from Mod) and apophasis (you).

The Battle of Lepanto has personal meaning for me, but I knew nothing about the Standard, and I sense the wicked depths of this act.

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BurningEagle PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
All I did was look it up and send you the quote. I, too, must look up the words, especially those with Greek roots.

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Hmph. I looked it up and didn't find anything like that. Glad you did.

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Wow. I just read the Crisis article. Thank you, again.

I was moved not just by the content, but almost forcibly struck by the....timidity? of Fr. Rutler's response to Pvi's action. Rutler wrote passionately about the battle and put his heart on the page, but was waaaay understated about what I would imagine would be a much deeper feeling about the betrayal. I'm guessing he is not s/v.

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anna mack BurningEagle • 6 hours ago
That man really did stink :-(

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BurningEagle PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
By the mid 20th century it seems the tables had been turned on Christian Europe, which was not left with much Christianity. No surprise. This had been foretold in numerous prophecies throughout the ages, but nevertheless, here it was, and here was Pope Paul VI making his “magnanimous” gesture of “good will” – as he publicly returned the Turkish banner, captured at Lepanto, back to the Turkish government! https://thesprucetunnel.wor...

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Was there any public outcry from the faithful about this? Or were they simply ignored, like with so much.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #53 on:** October 16, 2018, 10:14:55 PM »

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I loaded more comments. They were getting interesting...
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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Was there any public outcry from the faithful about this? Or were they simply ignored, like with so much.

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BurningEagle PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
None that I knew of.

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
This is not apropos, but I came across it last night while doing a search for something unrelated and was reminded of one your previous posts:

https://www.catholicgentlem...

Have no idea if it is "legit," but it made me laugh.

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BurningEagle PaxTecuм • 2 days ago
It is 100% correct and legitimate. I have a Rituale Romanum from 1925.

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Wonderful!

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PaxTecuм BurningEagle • 2 days ago
Did you see this comment after the Spruce Tunnel article:

"I was only 11 in Venice at the dentist’s clinic waiting room. A woman who had extracted her tooth was spitting blood and swearing to the Pope Paul VI. I could not understand what she was so upset about. As I embarked the motoscafo to return to my island of San Lazzaro degli Armeni, I heard the news that on that date the Pope had returned the captured Turkish flag of Lepanto back to the Turks in a goodwill gesture."

That's more like it.

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Robert Pentangelo PaxTecuм • a day ago
An act of surrender and appeasement. I shall bring up this up with that great friend of our people Jorge Mario Bergoglio when we visit him in Rome to celebrate the great feast of Hannukkah. What act of surrender and appeasement can we obtain from him to surpass this? Maybe Francis will give us the "true cross" upon which the Nazarene was justly executed by the Romans with a little help from our sages of blessed memory We have been wanting to get our hands on this for 2000 years.

L'Chaim!

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Geremia16 • 2 days ago
Check out Fr. Luigi Villa's Paul VI Beatified?.

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John D. Horton • a day ago
Why doesn't the pope just canonize himself as soon as he is elected by the College of Cardinals?

What ever happened to the rule that you had to wait 200 years from the date of death before the pope canonized anyone?

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BurningEagle John D. Horton • a day ago
I don't know of such a rule. Pope Pius XII canonized St. Pius X only 40 years after his death.
Besides, a pope is the supreme legislator, and is above any ecclesiastical law or custom.
But with regard to the Novus Ordo, one is only limited by one's imagination. I can see Jorge the Humble, from his deathbed, commanding his church to canonize him immediately after his death. Certainly the Novus Ordo perfidious mob will be shouting, "Santo subito!"

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BurningEagle John D. Horton • a day ago
the College of Cardinals... I think a better term for the Novus Ordo pretender cardinals would be the Daycare of Delinquents; or perhaps, Romper Room of Reprobates. Either one still has the alliteration, but is more reflective of the truth.

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CharlesMartel • a day ago
I'm a Traditional Catholic who attends mass with the FSSP. I pray the daily rosary, abstain from meat on Fridays in remembrance of the fact that Jesus was crucified for our sins on that day, go to regular confession, and try to attend mass during weekdays, so please don't take me for a Novus Ordo heretic! While I haven't gone sedevacantist yet, the systematic canonization of Vatican II popes seems to me like a barely disguised attempt to canonize Vatican II itself.

Out of 266 popes, I've counted 85 saints, or 32% of the total. But most of these saints were in the first 7 centuries of the church, when virtually 100% of popes achieved sainthood. For 10 centuries until the 20th century, papal canonization rates hovered around 0%. Now a full 50% of popes following Pius XII have been canonized. Once Venerable John Paul 1 is made a saint, the figure will be 75%. If we remove Popes Francis and Benedict (who are both in line to be made saints, according to Pope Francis), a full 100% of Vatican II popes will have been sanctified.

Given the near 0% rate for the previous 10 centuries, this is remarkable. Either we are witnessing an unprecedented revival in papal sainthood, most remarkable in a de-Christianised Europe. Or else it's the Novus Ordo being canonized. The possibility that sainthoods are being awarded not for sainthood, but to shut down criticism of a liturgical reform that has done much to destroy the church, is troubling to say the least.

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PaxTecuм CharlesMartel • a day ago
You said, "While I haven't gone sedevacantist yet,..."

Any particular reason why not? Dogmatic, emotional, psychological...?

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CharlesMartel PaxTecuм • 19 hours ago
Sadly, it seems to me that the mystical body of Christ is now deeply divided. Between the Novus Ordo and the Traditionalists, for starters. But worse, Traditionalists themselves are divided into 3 camps, none of whose positions I find entirely satisfactory:

-FSSP/ICKSP: as long as we get to keep the Latin mass and our traditional Catholic devotions, we pretend the Church is one big happy family. We accept the Novus Ordo as valid, but want nothing to do with it personally. No politics, we keep our heads firmly in the sand, and avoid rocking the boat. Not a peep about the multiple papal pronouncements which reek of heresy. Pretending all is well isn't entirely satisfactory from a logical perspective, or from a Christian one, which should focus on saving everyone, not just one's own small group.

-SSPX: We have the Latin Mass and traditional devotions, but are much more involved politically, pointing out that the Novus Ordo is almost like a new church, and opposing the Islamisation of the West. However, we also pretend there is no schism with Rome and we are in obedience to the Pope in fact when we are not. Politically, this is a bit more palatable, but it reeks of hypocrisy to pretend full unity with the Novus Ordo church when this isn't the case.

-Scedevacantist: Make excellent points about the disastrous state of the Church and the fact that the Novus Ordo liturgy and practices (like the collapse in the sacrament of confession) so contradicts Catholic teaching that it's virtually a new church. Scedevacantism seems to have logic and consistency. However, scedevacantism seems to contradict Jesus's promise that "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church". The position that the church has been eclipsed is also eerily reminiscent of the radical Protestant position that the whore of Babylon (the Catholic church for them) eclipsed true Christianity for 1200 years until Martin Luther and John Calvin came along.

My other beef with the scedevacantists are that they seem to want to consign almost the entirety of humanity to hell (except for them and their friends). That's a little bit prideful to say the least, not to mention uncharitable. The Most Holy Family Monastery is a case in point. John Paul II is anathemised as a non-Catholic for having kissed the Quran. Mother Theresa is a heretic and a religious indifferentist for not having forced the conversion of Hindus. While there is much logic here (Islam is indeed the anti-Christ religion and Jesus is indeed the only way to salvation), there is very little in the way of Christian charity and compassion. The fact that Mother Theresa, when asked what pained her most about the world, replied "the way people receive the Holy Eucharist" (thus a direct indictment of cafeteria style communion, one of the things I find most reprehensible with the Novus Ordo), or asked that tabernacles be placed back in the centre of the church, is definitely not mentioned.

So there you are. Some traditionalists have intellectual rigour on their side, and make a number of excellent points, but seem to lack compassion, and are ready to consign most of humanity to hell with a trace of glee. Other traditionalists keep the liturgy and traditional practices, but withdraw into their corner and keep their heads in the sand regarding the state of the church/world. No position is entirely satisfactory. I am perfectly happy with my excellent FSSP and ICKSP priests.

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PaxTecuм CharlesMartel • 12 hours ago
My original question was, what is keeping you from s/v, is it dogmatic, emotional, psychological? Based on your response to me, and to others, it is emotional. Your posts talk about choices you have made and that you are "happy" with your choices, but do not address specific points of dogma that make clear the irreducibility of s/v.

I understand that some of your statements appear to address dogma, but, again, your response is emotional: you say, "However, scedevacantism seems to contradict Jesus's promise that "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church"." "Seems" is not a dogma on which to base your life. If you are willing to examine this "seeming" contradiction according to Traditional Church teaching, you will find it is not.

This "seeming" contradiction is addressed exhaustively elsewhere on this website. Are you willing to walk down that road? If so, I, and others I expect, will help you find the posts on this website that address it.

Please bear in mind that fully addressing this (or most any other) single question will put to rest most, if not all, of the other questions.

I am a bit of a broken record with what I will say next, but, as I do with most non s/v newcomers, I heartily invite you to click on “Start Here” at the top of the page, read it, and bring to this combox any specific points of disagreement or questions.

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CharlesMartel PaxTecuм • 11 hours ago
As I pointed out, I find neither of the three traditional Catholic positions entirely satisfactory. One is putting its head in the sand. The other is acting a bit hypocritically. The third may well be right logically/dogmatically, but it's harsh, and seems to lack the love of neighbour.
Am more than happy with the FSSP TLM. No, Pope Francis is not my cup of tea, and if Vatican II bore any good fruits, I don't see any, but I'm not going to go around proclaiming that all post Pius XII popes are anti-pope heretics.

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PaxTecuм CharlesMartel • 11 hours ago
Perhaps third time’s a charm. We’ll see.

You said, "The third may well be right logically/dogmatically…”

I stopped the quote there, b/c dogmatic truth is what Christ gave us in the Church and is all that matters. Yes? If no, then graciously accept that you are Protestant but you are “happy” to attend services that look and sound Catholic.

Rest of quote,”…but it's harsh, and seems to lack the love of neighbour.”

Really? How about this, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” ? That IS dogma, not “happy” sentiment.

The truth can be very harsh indeed. “Cast not your pearls before swine…”. remember who said that? “Be ye hot or cold, if you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth,” remember who said that? There are more...

This is also the person who, when tortured, bloody and hanging on a cross, with almost his last dying breath said, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.”

You cannot have the one without the other.

It is not for us to pick and choose of the Truth what we like, what makes us “happy” in the moment. Jesus knows what makes happy for eternity and has provided for us. But eternal happiness, and true peace of mind in the moment, come through “Thy will be done,” not mine, or yours, or anyone else’s.

Again, I invite you to examine, with the harsh, burning, relentless light of day, the dogma you reject in order to be what you describe as “happy.”

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CharlesMartel PaxTecuм • 10 hours ago
If Jesus has to chose between the Christian who is dogmatically right, but prideful of his superior knowledge, or the one who is meek, humble and serves the poor, but occasionally errs dogmatically, even if unwittingly, who do you think He would chose? Mother Theresa, who spent 50 years helping the poorest of the poor in selfless devotion, but occasionally bordered on religions indifferentism, helping the poorest Hindus without forcibly converting them to Christianity. Or the armchair sedevacantist Catholic, who correctly points out the glaring contradictions between Vatican II and prior church teachings, anathemizes all post V2 popes as heretics and anti-popes, casts the stone at Mother Theresa, guilty of ecuмenism and religious indifferentism, and hasn't lifted a finger to help the poor, let alone sacrificed his life to them? I think Jesus will choose humility, humility, humility, kindness and compassion over intellectual rigour.
By the way, I don't reject dogma. Just pointing out that the sedevacantist position, which wishes to split itself from Rome, now declared the seat of the anti-Christ, seems to ignore Jesus's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church (it's also rather a Protestant thing to do, an odd thing for Catholics more Catholic than the Pope). Anathemizing other Christians, casting the stone at Novus Ordo Catholics and recent popes, mistaken as they may have been, also reeks of pride. Our Lord Jesus famously exclaimed "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Are you without any sin, my friend?

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Novus Ordo Watch Mod CharlesMartel • 10 hours ago
Charles,

First, let me say that it is good to see a new commenter who is willing to talk about these issues and is open to embracing the truth wherever it may lead.

I notice, however, that you are considering the matter with too much emotion. Your argumentation above is essentially emotional. You might as well say you will go to every church that calls itself Christian and then go with whatever denomination you "feel" has the most loving, charitable, kind people in it.

Your job is not to find out where the most people are accidentally in the state of sanctifying grace, but where the true Church is, where true Catholicism is to be found.

This is not a question of intellectual rigor, this is a question of Faith vs. perfidy (no Faith). Faith is not simply an intellectual exercise. You can have all the kindness in the world, it nevertheless remains true that "without faith, it is impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6; cf. Mk 16:16).

You are confusing two things: (1) the objective reality about who does and does not profess the truth Faith; (2) the subjective reality that some who do not profess the true Faith may not be culpable for their heresy. We are only concerned with (1). The subjective state matters for the individual before God at the Last Judgment, but it does not relativize (1).

When you contrast the humble erring soul with the supposedly sinful sedevacantist, you are comparing apples to oranges. To have a fair comparison, you must contrast the virtuous sedevacantist with the virtuous Novus Ordo, or the sinful sedevacantist with the sinful Novus Ordo.

Let me also ask: Whence this harsh judgment of sedevacantists not having lifted a finger to help the poor? Do you even personally *know* any sedevacantists? I live among them and I have yet to find one who refuses to be charitable to the poor. A lot of virtue is hidden, as it should be. The fact is that you simply have no idea who gives how much in terms of corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

As for pride, well, we all suffer from it, and hopefully each of us will overcome it with the help of God's grace. Pride can manifest itself almost everywhere, and comes often under the guise of humility. Pride is a capital sin, meaning it is the source of many others, but it is oftentimes only a venial sin, unlike heresy, for example. So let's also keep things in perspective.

Although all sedevacantists, as virtually all other people in the world, have some amount of pride, the sedevacantist position itself is not prideful but one of humble submission to the timeless truths of the Faith. It is simply applying the dogmatic truth of Catholicism to the empirical facts of our day. The gates of hell have prevailed not if Francis isn't the Pope but if he is. This article and esp. its embedded video clip, makes the case why this is so: https://novusordowatch.org/...

One final point: Please read the book "Liberalism is a Sin" (1886) by Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany. It was endorsed explicitly by the Sacred Congregation of the Index under Pope Leo XIII. It is a short read and very enlightening. It shows how much our world, our surroundings, our thoughts, have been tainted by Liberalism. It is not meant to be an accusation against you, it is simply meant as an important reality check to see how many ideas we are indoctrinated with by our society that are actually not Catholic but liberal. It has been a most enlightening read for me, and I think you will come away a different person. It is free to read online, and I promise you will not regret it: https://www.ewtn.com/librar...

May God bless.

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BurningEagle Novus Ordo Watch • 9 hours ago
May God bless you for your patience, and your longsuffering.

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PaxTecuм CharlesMartel • 10 hours ago
Do you believe something I said to you was uncharitable? If so, please point it out to me. Charles, I cannot know your mind and heart, nor you mine.

A couple of posts ago, you said, "However, scedevacantism seems to contradict Jesus's promise that "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church”."

I invited you to examine what has been written about that on this website. Your response to it is perhaps summed in your sentence, "Am more than happy with the FSSP TLM.”

So, how about this: Why do you think s/v contradict’s Jesus’ promise?

You asked if I am without sin. Alas, I am not.

NOTE: since I wrote this and before posting it, I noticed the NOW Mod's post below. It says beautifully much more than what I have struggled to say. I hope it speaks to your heart.

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SD CharlesMartel • 11 hours ago
Oh boy, another worshiper of man here to tell us that God didn’t have enough charity when He revealed dogma to Holy Church. “But it’s not niiiiice that unrepentant sinners go to hell!”

I guess God is wrong (because He is too “mean”) and glorious man is right after all. Hurray, we’re all saved!

Scratch that, the God-given dogma of the Faith “may well be right”, but I am “more than happy” with my golden calfs of Latin Mass and religious tolerance, so goodbye Truth! It was great never knowing You!

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CharlesMartel SD • 10 hours ago
I never said that. I never said hurray, we're all going to heaven.
Just saying that being an armchair sedevacantist Catholic who anathemizes all recent popes as heretics reeks a little of pride, wouldn't it? Everybody is wrong and is going to hell, except you and your friends - if that isn't pride (the root of all sins), I don't know what is. Also, claiming that the whole post-V2 Catholic church is an anti-Church which has eclipsed the true church seems to negate Jesus's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. It's also more than just a little bit reminiscent of Protestantism (the more radical among them claim that the Roman Catholic church eclipsed the true Christians in the 300s, fortunately they re-emerged in the 1500s).
Pope Francis is not my cup of tea. He's a deeply disruptive Pope, whose pronouncements frequently reek of heresy if not blasphemy. But the church which Jesus founded has survived bad popes before and it will survive Francis. Am not at all happy about the situation, but I don't walk around claiming all recent popes are heretics.

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SD CharlesMartel • 10 hours ago
What is pride but man or angel usurping the throne of God and declaring himself God? The dogma of the Faith is revealed to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit, yet you accept and reject His dogmas based on what feels good to you, who is a saint based on who is deserving (“charitable”) in your own sight. And yet you have the gall to say that Catholics who hold fast to the precepts of Lord regardless of popular feeling are prideful? That CATHOLICS are the ones pushing God aside and separating the goats from the sheep ourselves, on our own whims? No, that is what YOU antichrists do.

You worship a false Jesus who cares more about feeding the body with wafers and happy sensations than feeding the soul with truth and suffering, which is in fact a reflection of yourself. You reveal it in your language when you say that Catholics “send people to hell” when they profess the Kingdom of God.

Man does not have the power to send anyone to hell. John the Baptist did not send Herod to hell, but only declared what was given to him by the Most High. And even if he had the “charity” to tell Herod that his situation is complex and God will forgive him, he wouldn’t have the power to make it so.

The truth is not based on the consensus of man. The consensus of man is exactly what condemned the truth to death on the cross, which is what you came here to do.

To hell with your “palatable” position. To hell with your “popes”. To hell with your “church”. To hell with your hate disguised as charity and your lies disguised as truth. To hell with your pride disguised as humility, too. And to hell with your father Satan disguised as an angel of light who gave these all to you.

God have mercy on your soul for persecuting Mother Church in her Passion.

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BurningEagle SD • 10 hours ago
SD: It is getting nearly impossible to find folks who are willing to study the faith and act on it. I am done with CharlesMartel. As a matter of fact, since I have such a short memory, I am now keeping, as of today, a list of "trolls," on my computer, which I will consult before responding to folks. If they are on the list, I am going to ignore them. The list will be for Feeneyites, private revelationists, R&R trolls (S?PX FSSP, ICKSP, etc.), hidden pope followers (some sort of Siri-appointed pope), various foul mouthed folks, lovers of novelty, etc. It is not worth the energy to depress the keys on the keyboard. All of them base their actions on something foreign to Catholicism as found in Papal pronouncements, Catechisms, 1917 Canon Law, well accepted pre-Vatican II theologians, St. Thomas, and other saints.

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SD BurningEagle • 8 hours ago
BE: Good idea about the troll list! Yes, they are guided not on the precepts of Holy Church, but of non serviam, do what thou wilt, the concupiscence of the flesh and the pride of life.

And they dissolve Christ. Like all heretics, they want us to forget that God truly died for love of us, so that we love Him and want to die for Him too. They would have us believe that such a love is “hate” insofar as it demands our reciprocation under pain of death and reveals the hearts of men as vain.

When they pray or fast, they offer sacrifices to the idols of their own sentimentality for love of themselves, according to laws they chose for themselves. And they call it “humility” to doubt God’s Church and have full confidence in the charity of man, but doubting man’s goodness and only trusting the simple Apostolic Faith is “pride”. So they abandon the immutable precepts of the Lord while holding fast to the changeable favoritisms of their heart and call it “justice”. When God chastises sinners in hope of pardoning them in this life, they call it “unjust” and offer these a new refuge in their own bosom, calling it “mercy” — although they “humbly” can’t say for sure and couldn’t care less whether this will save those sinners from hell. Such is their “charity”.

I only respond to these fools, not because I have any hope for them, but because it is a public forum. Who knows how many people read the comments.

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BurningEagle SD • 7 hours ago
I am continually being shown how foolish or gullible I am in thinking people are interested in learning the faith and adhering to it, come what may. I don't think there has been one person concerning whom I can say I have influenced to give up the N.O. and its hierarchy, and adhere to the Catholic religion and those priests and bishops who uncompromisingly do the same.

But the most disappointing thing is the illogical positions. If I wanted to argue with somebody about resistance welding, it would be logical for me to study resistance welding before I start spouting some cockamamie theory. If I wanted to argue about the health benefits of bottle-conditioned beer, you would think that I would study the subject before opening my mouth and babbling something stupid. If I wanted to argue about hydraulics and pneumatics in industrial automation, you would think that I would learn at least the basics of those disciplines before trying to teach people how to properly tackle an application. So, with regard to what is and what is not Roman Catholicism, one would expect people to at least study what the catechisms, the theologians, the councils and above all the popes have taught from St. Peter through Pope Pius XII, before coming to a conclusion on what is Catholic and what isn't; and what is morally permissible and what isn't; and what we should do and what we should not do.

It is mind-blowing. It is as if there was no Catholic Church, and no Catholic magisterium to look up from St. Peter though Pope Pius XII. It is as if we are permitted to just make things up as we go long. It is very discouraging.

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SD BurningEagle • 6 hours ago
I am a fool, too. But hey, more hope for a fool than a man wise in his own conceit!

We are living in the age of Luther, of subjectivism, of skepticism, of fragmenting and negating. I always underestimate the amount of mass media these worldlings consume and how deeply it affects them. But the drums beat louder and louder every day, to the chant of “YOUR truth and MY truth” “there is no such thing as THE truth”.

So it’s no wonder that they don’t inquire about the technical facts before starting a debate. There is no such thing as a debate in their world. Only different truths having an encounter lol. The only rule is not to step on someone else’s truth when stating your own. Denying their “truth babies” the right to exist is practically genocidal in their eyes. You might as well grow a little mustache and invade Poland lol.

We don’t understand that they don’t come here to debate (to have a logical discussion concerning the truth of a matter) in the first place. Their purpose is to bestow upon us their wonderful company while we all grope around in common darkness. And they are personally offended when we tell them to turn on the light and stop flailing around before they hurt themselves.

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2Vermont SD • 6 hours ago
To both BE and SD: Although I completely get your sentiments, I think we have to remember that even though these folks may not jump at the SV position immediately, we are planting seeds. I don't know your backgrounds, but it took me a bit of time before I accepted the SV position as the true position. Yes, there are those who are clearly trolls, but I would like to think that there are just some who aren't quite "there" yet. I am hoping that CM is one of those guys.

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SD 2Vermont • 6 hours ago
I hope you are right but I would like to ask: When you were in that transitory phase, did you comment on sedevacantist websites informing people of your “feelings” about theology, or accusing people you’ve never met and know nothing about of not giving enough alms towards the poor because their theological conclusion make you “feel” bad?

Did you reply to facts and references to good information by repeating said feelings as if your feelings were the rule of faith?

I just want to know if anyone who acts so ridiculously has ever converted. I understand getting facts wrong, but I don’t understand arguing feelings against facts. I think that might be the point of no return.

I really do sympathize with confused or simple minded people. But when people brush away facts with “well I’m satisfied doing things MY way, the humble (sic) way”, I don’t know. The spirit of Antichrist and worship of man is too strong.

It’s like when I tried to convert one Coptic friend of mine. After much appeal to emotion, she eventually admitted the primacy of the Bishop of Rome and that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. But she refused to convert because “my family is holy people”. It’s better to sin against God, the Truth, than to sin against her holy people by admitting they’re (hopefully just innocently) wrong.

You can convert someone who wants to love God but doesn’t know where to find Him yet. You can’t convert someone who already looks Truth in the face and says “I hate you for not affirming MY holiness”. That is my experience at least.

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BurningEagle SD • 5 hours ago
Well said.

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BurningEagle 2Vermont • 5 hours ago
But if we all want to be Catholics, why can't we all look to what the Catholic church believed, taught, practiced before all the rot started? I am sick of the High Church Anglican approach. Then the R&R adherents have the gall to say that we sedevacantists are abandoning the Catholic Church, when they complain about all the non-Catholic things that are officially promulgated and pushed in the Novus Ordo Church. It is they who have abandoned the Catholic Faith, and Catholic morality. They act like the Catholic Church is some sort of Jekyll-Hyde monster, both good and bad. They act like Our Lord's church is that which has tango masses, beach balls on the altar, stangs for crosiers, protestant fellowship meals, invalid orders, ecuмenism, religious liberty, divorce and re-marriage, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ clergy.

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BurningEagle SD • 5 hours ago
Well stated.

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anna mack SD • 6 hours ago
I've certainly enjoyed your last few ;-)

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • 9 hours ago
If Francis is the pope, you as a Catholic must adhere to his teachings. You must be true to his mind and his pronouncements (Amoris Laetitia for example). You are not allowed to say he is not your cup of tea. You cannot reject the saints he makes, you cannot reject his Novus Ordo Mass, you cannot reject the Luminous Mysteries, you cannot reject ANYTHING of the Novus Ordo.

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anna mack BurningEagle • 6 hours ago
Oh, but it *feels* good!

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2Vermont CharlesMartel • 6 hours ago
"Also, claiming that the whole post-V2 Catholic church is an anti-Church which has eclipsed the true church seems to negate Jesus's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church."

Actually, claiming the True Church could teach error to the Universal Church in a General/Ecuмenical Council promulgated by a true pope negates Jesus' promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail.

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J Nelson CharlesMartel • 4 hours ago
Here is another way to look at it. Don't think of it as anathematizing the V2 "popes". Instead, think of how the Pope is the point of unity in the Faith. When one attends the Novus Ordo Missae, one is affirming before God that they hold the same faith as these popes and their false council. Considering all the heresies and apostasy that would include, could you do such a thing? I, for one, would hope to have the heroic faith it would take to die rather than offend God in such a way. Popes are to be our rulers and teachers, guiding us to salvation. One of the ways to test whether we have the faith is to ask ourselves, "Do I submit to what the Pope teaches?" I know that if I were to submit to the V2 popes and attend their mass, my soul would be in grave danger. These men cannot possibly be true popes.

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anna mack CharlesMartel • 6 hours ago
So long as you're happy...

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J Nelson CharlesMartel • 5 hours ago
Most Holy Family Monastery does have some good information on some topics, but they are cultish, hostile Feeneyites, so use caution and discernment. Don't regard them as representative of all sedevcantists. In fact, you can probably do without them altogether. Novus Ordo Watch has links to lots of sound resources.

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anna mack PaxTecuм • 6 hours ago
It's always, always, always emotional, which is why the R&Rers make no sense. Emotion is never sensible and always self-serving.

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • a day ago
This should be a wake up call to you (one of many). The problem is not the mass, although that is symptomatic of the problem. The problem is the faith. The faith of the new religion is different. As a matter of fact, everything is different.
They have new doctrines, new saints, new "mass," new (invalid) sacraments, new code of canon law, new catechisms, new theology, new morality.
Jorge blasphemes regularly. He only kneels for men but never for the "blessed sacrament."
I know it sounds harsh to you, but I honestly cannot understand how anyone could step into a church which is communion with Jorge, The Rat, The Deuce, the Smiling Luciani, Pee Wee Montini, or Rotund Roncalli. How does it not play on your conscience that you are kneeling at a mass which is in communion with that heretic, Jorge, and which also may be said by a layman pretending to be a priest (the new 1968 consecration rite of bishops is invalid, and the new ordination of priests is at least dubious).
It would be like going to "mass" at a church which has the picture of Luther in it. -Oh, wait, the Novus Ordo put out a stamp celebrating Luther, and "St." John Paul II called Luther a profoundly religious man and a great reformer.

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CharlesMartel BurningEagle • 18 hours ago
As I said, I find Pope Francis deeply troubling and his statements reeking of heresy. Proselytism among Christians is a sin, equation of Islamic violence (mandated by the Quran against non-Muslims) with 'Catholic' violence (strictly prohibited by our religion), praise for everybody (atheists, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, Muslims, you name it) except devout traditional Catholics (too "rigid"), the celebration of Martin Luther, who split the mystical body of Christ into 30,000 sects and deprived countless millions of Christians of the Holy Eucharist, the list is very long indeed. Not to mention one sickening Pope Francis "joke" about the crucifixion of Jesus. In that "joke", a Jєωιѕн man sends his badly behaved son to a Catholic school. After a month, the boy returns well behaved, and when the father asks why, the rector says he showed the boy a crucifix and told him that if he didn't behave, he would end up like that other Jєω on the cross. Joking about the torturous execution of a human being, let alone the Son of God, is unbelievable.

Pope Francis's incessant push to welcome Muslim invaders into Europe, which will inevitably result in a majority Islamic Europe within 50-100 years, given the demographics, is particularly painful to me. I was a fallen away Catholic for 28 years. I never set foot into a church and never prayed. My soul was dead, but I was oblivious to it. I was a cultural "Christian", ferociously opposed to the Islamisation of the West, but that was it. Exactly two years ago, I turned to Jesus as soon as I realised that the Islamisation of Europe is God's punishment for our apostacy. I didn't step into the nearest Catholic church largely because of Pope Francis's pro-Islam position, which is/was anathema to me. Instead I stepped into an Anglican church. There I received communion kneeling at the altar rail, which I had never had in my Novus Ordo youth. This humble act restored my faith immediately. Thanks to the internet, I immediately discovered that this was the way Holy Communion was distributed in the Catholic Church before Vatican II. I discovered the Latin Mass, the mass of all ages, had been suppressed. Returning to the traditional Catholic practices of regular confession, the Latin Mass, communion kneeling at the altar rail, meatless Fridays, the daily rosary, eucharistic adoration turned me from completely secular to devout Christian in a few weeks. I am deeply grateful to Jesus for my conversion and the most precious gift of all, the gift of faith.

However, I am happy with my deeply devout traditionalist FSSP/ICKSP parishes. There is no reason to seek out the SSPX or a scedevacantist chapel when Latin Masses in communion with Rome have done so much for my soul. While the FSSP does not do politics, I certainly do politics. Am very active on Breitbart, and tell everyone who will listen that the Islamisation of the West is God's punishment for our turning away from Jesus. My hope is that other secularised Westerners who oppose Islamisation on strictly political/cultural/nationalist grounds will follow the path I did: turn devout Christians in a jiffy. Having Pope Francis as Pope can be more difficult than wearing a hair-shirt at times, but let's be good Christians and pray for him.

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • 15 hours ago
Try to apply the teaching of the Catholic Church to Roncalli through Jorge.

https://novusordowatch.org/...
I am sorry to have to say this, but your emotional reaction to what was objectively a mortal sin against the faith (going to a non-Catholic church and receiving their wafer, whether Anglican, or FSSP, or what have you), is not the way to judge the veracity of one's position.
How does it square up with the 1,925 years of infallible magisterium from St. Peter to Pius XII - that is how you judge the Catholicity and the moral rectitude of one's position.

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CharlesMartel BurningEagle • 15 hours ago
You consider the FSSP non-Catholic???

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • 15 hours ago
Yes, Yes, Yes, I do, because they consider Religious Liberty of Vatican II as Catholic, because they consider ecuмenism as Catholic, because they are in communion with the "Cult of Man" as "Saint" Montini called it, because they venerate Roncalli, Montini and Wojtyla as saints, because they accept the new ordination rites and new consecration rites, because they are 100% in communion with the New Conciliar Church, but they just prefer the older rites. They are like High Church Anglicans.

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CharlesMartel BurningEagle • 14 hours ago
My FSSP priest offers a reverential Latin mass. He tells us to pray the Holy Rosary daily, just as the Mother of God encouraged us to do at Fatima. He encourages regular confession of sins, which has fallen out of favour with most Novus Ordo priests. His piety and devotion are towards our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Virgin Mary, not the cult of man. He doesn't pray to Roncalli, Montini and Wojtyla, as far as I can tell (nor do we pray the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary). Pope Francis is not his cup of tea, however he doesn't go around proclaiming him to be an anti-pope (my ICKSP priest believes Francis is a bad pope, of which the church set up by Jesus Christ has seen - and survived - many).
My FSSP priest began his priestly training with Monseigneur Lefebvre, without whose efforts the Latin Mass would have nearly vanished. But, he disapproves of the SSPX because he believes that you should never cut off yourself from the mystical body of Christ even if, as he acknowledges, the church is very ill indeed. This is a devout, humble traditional priest trying to lead his flock to safety, and I am thankful for him.

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • 14 hours ago
I am done. There is an infinite difference between the R&R position and the sedevacantist position.
If you do not see it, we are wasting our time.

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CharlesMartel BurningEagle • 13 hours ago
What is the R&R position? Not familiar with all acronyms.

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BurningEagle CharlesMartel • 13 hours ago
Recognize the Post Vatican II "popes" but resist them. Recognize and Resist. It is 100% non Catholic.
https://novusordowatch.org/...

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CharlesMartel BurningEagle • 12 hours ago
Thanks. I don't entirely disagree with the view that secedevacantism has more logic to it than R&R traditionalism. Especially under the current pontificate, it is an increasingly palatable position.
http://pennreview.com/2018/...

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poche · « **Reply #54 on:** October 16, 2018, 10:39:19 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on October 15, 2018, 08:26:38 AM

Many saints have been incorrupt after death, but within hours after his death, Montini's corpose could have been smelled from Sicily if the wind were blowing just right.

While there are some saints whose bodies are incorrupt, that is not the type of miracle which is acceptable to the Congregation that oversees the canonization of saints.

Cantarella · « **Reply #55 on:** October 16, 2018, 10:47:22 PM »

Quote from: Maria Regina on October 15, 2018, 01:09:06 PM

Exactly, during the Early Church period, all or almost all the Popes were saints.

Persecution refines and purifies people.

It looks like only two Popes saints since 1566:

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #56 on:** October 17, 2018, 12:47:14 AM »

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The final link from the 'comments' above:
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http://pennreview.com/2018/04/rr-traditionalism-some-serious-doubts/
.

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R&R Traditionalism: Some Serious Doubts

By
Joseph S. Salemi

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In case you missed it, the darkened skin on Bishop-of-Rome Francis is reminiscent of the dark blotches on Paul VI's corpse lying in state, see above.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #57 on:** October 17, 2018, 12:59:23 AM »

Quote from: poche on October 16, 2018, 10:39:19 PM

While there are some saints whose bodies are incorrupt, that is not the type of miracle which is acceptable to the Congregation that oversees the canonization of saints.

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I was told by a man who tried to defend the so-called canonization of JPII that two miracles were needed for him to be canonized.
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But the fact that in the end only one "miracle" was necessary, that was, itself, the second miracle!

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #58 on:** October 17, 2018, 01:08:45 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella on October 16, 2018, 10:47:22 PM

It looks like only two Popes saints since 1566:

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Perhaps they made a mistake: Pope Pius IX (d. 1878 ) was beatified, not Innocent XI.
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Pius IX was pope for 32 years, the longest papacy in history.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #59 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:10:34 AM »

Wasn’t St Peter longer?

Author Topic: Paul VI "canonized" (Read 4388 times)

Beaumont

Re: Paul VI "canonized"

Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Struthio

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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poche

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Cantarella

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Pax Vobis

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