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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Paul VI "canonized"
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2018, 05:28:50 PM »
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  • It's a mid-level infallibility (which is based on the understanding of infallibility PREVIOUS to Vatican I's definition) which is not dogmatic but only a "certainty of faith".  To say that canonizations are infallible without qualifying and explaining that it's a different infallibility than dogma is being untruthful.

    As you said:  This has been said many times, but you don't want to believe it.

    Correct, you may follow some theologians in holding that the infallibility of canonizations is only theologically certain and not de fide.  Consequently, you are merely committing a mortal sin in rejecting it and are not a heretic in the strict sense of the word.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #31 on: October 15, 2018, 05:29:06 PM »
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  • How could God allow his Vicar on Earth to bind the faithful to universally revere a damned soul and to have His Church pray to and ask the intercession of a damned soul?
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    Bishop-of-Rome Francis does not refer to himself as "the Vicar of Christ on Earth," or as "the Pope."
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    This so-called canonization was announced 6 months ago, where was all the howling and moaning then? It's not a surprise. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #32 on: October 15, 2018, 05:34:36 PM »
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  • .
    St. John the Evangelist, "the Apostle whom Jesus loved," was never canonized, and did not die by martyrdom, like the other Apostles did.
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    Does that mean he's not a saint?
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    Moses was not canonized.
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    Jeremias and Isaias were not canonized.
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    Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and Ignatius of Antioch were not canonized.
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    St. Joseph, foster father of Our Lord, was not canonized.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #33 on: October 15, 2018, 05:35:34 PM »
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  • But, but, but the proooooocesss has changed!   :baby:

    I know.  Utterly idiotic.  This merely shows the increasing desperation of R&R.  Now Catholics are required to do an intense study and investigation of the process, whether it was thorough enough.  Of course, this presumes a Magisterial definition of what kind of process would suffice to guarantee infallibility.  Would having 3 theologians study the issue in depth suffice, or would it require 4?  Does it require 6 months of study and reflection or 3 years?  I have never seen a bigger load of codswallop in my entire life.  R&R, you're becoming not only desperate but downright pathetic.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #34 on: October 15, 2018, 05:37:01 PM »
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  • How could God allow his Vicar on Earth to bind the faithful to universally revere a damned soul and to have His Church pray to and ask the intercession of a damned soul?

    How could God allow his Vicar on Earth to lead a billion of faithful to hell, teaching countless heresies and other lies, replacing the catholic rites with non-catholic rites?

    One "Saint Montini" is just one more drop in a sea.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #35 on: October 15, 2018, 05:41:41 PM »
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  • Bishop-of-Rome Francis does not refer to himself as "the Vicar of Christ on Earth," or as "the Pope."

    Do you refer to him as such?
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #36 on: October 15, 2018, 05:43:22 PM »
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  • Bishop-of-Rome Francis does not refer to himself as "the Vicar of Christ on Earth," or as "the Pope."

    If he was the Bishop of Rome, than he would be the Pope, per definitionem.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #37 on: October 15, 2018, 05:48:16 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, "Saint" Montini:

    Quote
    Paul VI was outed by the gay French writer Roger Peyrefitte, in a 1976 interview he did in response to that pope’s anti-gay edicts. According to Peyrefitte, who knew his way around aristocratic circles in France and Italy, Paul VI led an active gay life while he was still Archbishop of Milan. Recalling the incident in a Gay Sunshineinterview, Peyrefitte recalled that Montini “had a relationship with a young movie actor” named Paul, whose name Montini took when he became pope. The future pope also visited “a discreet house” where he and other Milanese notables would “meet boys.” Peyrefitte’s revelations caused a sensation, and a sharp rebuttal from the Vatican.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #38 on: October 15, 2018, 05:51:27 PM »
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  • I know.  Utterly idiotic.  This merely shows the increasing desperation of R&R.  Now Catholics are required to do an intense study and investigation of the process, whether it was thorough enough.  Of course, this presumes a Magisterial definition of what kind of process would suffice to guarantee infallibility.  Would having 3 theologians study the issue in depth suffice, or would it require 4?  Does it require 6 months of study and reflection or 3 years?  I have never seen a bigger load of codswallop in my entire life.  R&R, you're becoming not only desperate but downright pathetic.
    More and more I think of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men" telling them:
    "You can't handle the Truth!"
    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #39 on: October 15, 2018, 06:00:30 PM »
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  • There is a formal process for canonizations because they are both human/divine decisions.  The fact that the Church has asked heaven for miracles to approve of the canonization, shows that the pope does NOT have the same protection in declaring a saint that he does in teaching dogma.  In fact, there is NO PROCESS the pope must follow BEFORE he teaches ex cathedral.  Conversely, the canonization process BEFORE the canonization decree USED TO BE extensive.  

    These differences between the 2 processes (dogma vs canonization) prove that the level of authority of the pope and the consequent imposition on our consciences are radically different.  

    All of you who keep saying that “canonizations are infallible” are guilty of rash generalizations.  And no, to doubt a “certainty of faith” is NOT a moral sin, when one has good reason to do so.  

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #40 on: October 15, 2018, 06:08:43 PM »
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  • From the CE:

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    Canonization, therefore, creates a cultus which is universal and obligatory. But in imposing this obligation the pope may, and does, use one of two methods, each constituting a new species of canonization, i.e. formal canonization and equivalent canonization. Formal canonization occurs when the cultus is prescribed as an explicit and definitive decision, after due judicial process and the ceremonies usual in such cases. Equivalent canonization occurs when the pope, omitting the judicial process and the ceremonies, orders some servant of God to be venerated in the Universal Church; this happens when such a saint has been from a remote period the object of veneration, when his heroic virtues (or martyrdom) and miracles are related by reliable historians, and the fame of his miraculous intercession is uninterrupted. Many examples of such canonization are to be found in Benedict XIV; e.g. Saints Romuald, Norbert, Bruno, Peter Nolasco, Raymond Nonnatus, John of Matha, Felix of Valois, Queen Margaret of Scotland, King Stephen of Hungary, Wenceslaus Duke of Bohemia, and Gregory VII. Such instances afford a good proof of the caution with which the Roman Church proceeds in these equivalent canonizations. St. Romuald was not canonized until 439 years after his death, and the honour came to him sooner than to any of the others mentioned. We may add that this equivalent canonization consists usually in the ordering of an Office and Mass by the pope in honour of the saint, and that mere enrollment in the Roman Martyrology does not by any means imply this honour (Benedict XIV, l, c., xliii, no 14).

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

    So, we see that the Pope in fact has the power to decree a canonization omitting all judicial process and the formal ceremonies. Who would have thought ::)? The Pope is after all, true Vicar of Christ on earth, and legitimate successor of St Peter, not just a random official who no one owes any respect or obedience.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #41 on: October 15, 2018, 06:16:22 PM »
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  • There is a formal process for canonizations because they are both human/divine decisions.  The fact that the Church has asked heaven for miracles to approve of the canonization, shows that the pope does NOT have the same protection in declaring a saint that he does in teaching dogma.  In fact, there is NO PROCESS the pope must follow BEFORE he teaches ex cathedral.  Conversely, the canonization process BEFORE the canonization decree USED TO BE extensive.  

    These differences between the 2 processes (dogma vs canonization) prove that the level of authority of the pope and the consequent imposition on our consciences are radically different.  

    All of you who keep saying that “canonizations are infallible” are guilty of rash generalizations.  And no, to doubt a “certainty of faith” is NOT a moral sin, when one has good reason to do so.  

    The infallibility of canonizations is a dogmatic fact. As per the CE definition, a dogmatic fact is a fact connected with a dogma and on which the application of the dogma to a particular case depends. In this case, the Catholic dogma is the Communion of the Saints.

    The Papal approbation of a saint for public veneration, is the note which makes it universal, different from a beatification, and therefore infallible, and binding to all the faithful.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #42 on: October 15, 2018, 06:43:34 PM »
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  • It's not a dogmatic fact.  The communion of saints is a dogma.  Who is/isn't part of this communion is not.

    For the 3rd time, go read the articles on the other thread which were written by people who know what they're talking about.  You do not.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #43 on: October 15, 2018, 06:57:19 PM »
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  • It's not a dogmatic fact.  The communion of saints is a dogma.  Who is/isn't part of this communion is not.


    I rather believe the Catholic Encyclopedia on this one, than Pax Vobis.

    Under the CE, 1917 entry "dogmatic fact":

    Quote
    By a dogmatic fact, in wider sense, is meant any fact connected with a dogma and on which the application of the dogma to a particular case depends.

    The following questions involve dogmatic facts in the wider sense: Is Pius X, for instance, really and truly Roman Pontiff [1909], duly elected and recognized by the Universal Church? This is connected with dogma, for it is a dogma of faith that every pontiff duly elected and recognized by the universal Church is a successor of Peter. Again, was this or that council ecumenical? This, too, is connected with dogma, for every ecumenical council is endowed with infallibility and jurisdiction over the Universal Church. The question also whether canonized saints really die in the odour of sanctity is connected with dogma, for every one who dies in the odour of sanctity is saved.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05092a.htm

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Paul VI "canonized"
    « Reply #44 on: October 15, 2018, 07:20:10 PM »
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  • .
    At some point in early Church history, all the earliest popes were believed to be saints, but that doesn't mean they were "canonized."
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    The process of canonization developed over the centuries.
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    Read in your missal, in the Canon, most of the saints are mentioned by their first name only, without "St." or "Saint" before the names.
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    It was common practice to refer to saints as "Blessed" and some even as "Venerable." Venerable Bede, for example.
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    In the 13th century (the time of St. Thomas Aquinas) canonization of saints was quite different from what it is today.
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    In fact, canonizations just 100 years ago were quite different from what they are today.

    It was just since Pope Urban VIII's Apostolic letter Caelestis Hierusalem cives in 1634 that canonizations and beatifications were exclusively reserved to the Apostolic See. This Pope also regulated both of them by issuing his Decreta servanda in beatificatione et canonizatione Sanctorum (1642).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

     

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