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Author Topic: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office  (Read 2776 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2023, 01:40:11 PM »
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  • Bergoglio provides for the common good and tranquility of the Church? He's done nothing but cause disunity and chaos.

    But I agree with Ladislaus, this isn't about personal heresy and never has been.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #31 on: April 15, 2023, 08:47:20 PM »
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  • Odd. Billuart held the opposite and less common opinion to Bellarmine that even occult heretics who had not publicly manifested their heresy were not members of the Church (see cited Fr. Fenton article, page 214 - the opinion of Sylvius, page 211), since they lacked the requisite supernatural bond of faith with Christ.

    The opinion, contrary to Bellarmine's, that even occult heretics who have not manifested their heresy publicly are not members of the Church is a permissible opinion on that still open question. Father Fenton talks about it here:

    Status_St_Robert_Bellarmine_Membership_Occult_Heretics_Church.pdf (ecclesiamilitans.com)

    My own view is that the question is an academic one, since, even if Francis is not a member and not pope, he de facto is pope, sitting in the seat, making cardinals, etc., with no rival claimant out there.

    True.

    On the Deposition of the Pope (Part 2 of 2) - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us)

    In the Treatise on the Incarnation (De Incarnatione, diss. IX, a. II, § 2, obj. 2) Billuart defends the thesis that Christ is not the head of heretics, even occult.

    It is objected that several doctors (Cajetan, Soto Cano, Suárez, etc.) say that the Pope fallen into occult heresy remains the head of the Church. So he must be a member.

    Billuart denies the conclusion:

    There is a difference between being constituted a head by the fact that one is influencing on the members, and being made a member by the fact that one is receiving an influx in itself;  this is why, while the pontiff [who] fell into occult heresy keeps the jurisdiction by which he influences the Church by governing her, thereby he remains the head;  but as he no longer receives the vital influx of Christ‘s faith or charity, who is the invisible and first head, he cannot be said to be a member of Christ or of the Church.

    Instance: it is repugnant to be the head of a body without being a member, since the head is the primary member.

    Answer:  I distinguish the first sentence: it is repugnant to a natural head, I agree; to a moral head, I deny it.  For example, Christ is the moral head of the Church, but he is not a member.  The reason for the difference is that the natural head cannot have an influence on other members without receiving the vital influx of the soul.  But the moral head, as the Pontiff is, can exercise the jurisdiction and the government over the Church and its members, although he is not informed by the soul of the Church, which are faith and charity, and that he does not receive any vital influx. 

    In a word, the Pope is made a member of the Church through the personal faith which he can lose, and the head of the Church by the jurisdiction and the power which can be reconciled with an internal heresy. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars III, Venice, 1787, p. 66)
    In the Treatise on Faith (De Fide diss IV to III, § 3, obj 2) Billuart defends the following thesis:  Heretics, even manifest (unless being denounced by name, or by leaving the Church themselves) keep the jurisdiction and absolve validly.
    He considers the question of the case of a Pope, which is a special case, who receives his jurisdiction not from the Church, but directly from Christ:

    It is nowhere stated that Christ continues to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pontiff, for this can be known by the Church and she can get another pastor.  However the common sentence [editor:  opinion] holds that Christ, by a special provision (ex speciali dispensatione), for the common good and peace of the Church, continues [to give] jurisdiction to a Pontiff even who is a manifest heretic, until he is declared manifestly heretical by the Church. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars II-II, Brescia, 1838, p. 33-34)

    In the Treaty on the Rules of Faith (De regulis fidei, diss IV, VIII a, § 2, obj 2 and 6) Billuart defends the following thesis:  The sovereign Pontiff is superior to any council by authority and jurisdiction.

    It is objected that the Pontiff is subject to the judgment of the Church in the case of heresy.  Why then he would not be subject also in other cases?

    He replies:

    This is because in the case of heresy, and not in other cases, he loses the pontificate by the fact itself of his heresy: how could remain head of the Church he who is no longer a member?  This is why he is subject to the judgment of the Church, not in order to be removed, since he is already deposed himself by heresy and he rejected the Pontificate (pontificatum abjecerit), but in order to be declared a heretic, and thus that he will be known to the Church that he is not anymore Pontiff: before this statement [of the Church] it is not permitted to refuse him obedience, because he keeps jurisdiction until then, not by right, as if he were still Pontiff, but in fact, by the will of God and accordingly disposing it for the common good of the Church. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars II-II, Brescia, 1838, p. 123)

    Another objector remarked that the Church would be deprived of a remedy if she could not subject the Pope to the Council in the case that he would be harmful and would seek to subvert her.

    Billuart replied that:

    If the pope sought to harm her in the faith, he would be manifestly heretical, and he would thereby lose the Pontificate: however it should be necessary a declaration of the Church in order to deny him obedience, as we have said above. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars II-II, Brescia, 1838, p. 125)

    If the Pope would harm the Church otherwise than in the faith, some say that one could resist him by the force of arms, however without losing his superiority.  St. Thomas Aquinas said it would be necessary to appeal to God in order to correct him or taking him away from this world (4 Sent. D. 19, q. 2, a. 2 q.1a 3, ad 2).

    Billuart prefers to think that:

    Whereas God governs and sustains his Church with a special Providence, he will not permit, as he has not permitted it so far, that this situation will happen, and if he permits it, he will not fail to give the means and the help appropriate. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars II-II, Brescia, 1838, p. 125)


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #32 on: April 15, 2023, 09:40:18 PM »
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  • I care only about the heretical non-Catholic contention that the Catholic Church can become corrupt through the free exercise of legitimate papal authority.  NO THEOLOGIAN EVER held this view.  Period.  End of debate.  Arguing Cajetan vs. Bellarmine or any of the other "5 opinions" is a distraction from the fact that these men were debating the Pope falling into heresy as a PRIVATE DOCTOR (i.e., as a private individual).  ABSOLUTELY NO CATHOLIC before the advent of R&R has ever believed that the Papal Magisterium and the Church's Universal Disciplien could go corrupt ... only various heretical groups, such as the Prots, Eastern Orthodox, and the Old Catholics.  Popes and Councils have condemned the heresies of this group that claimed that the Church had become corrupt in their day.
    I would agree with you, Ladislaus, if you had said, rather, the LEGITIMATE exercise of legitimate papal authority. All theologians would also then agree with you, no doubt.

    This is the issue, however: LEGITIMATE exercise of papal authority.

    The whole drama of the "revolution in tiara and cope" of the Second Vatican Council and all the innovations that followed, is one of ILLEGITIMATE exercise of papal authority, as if that authority had been constituted by God to innovate and not to preserve and clarify.

    Is it possible for a LEGITIMATE authority to act ILLEGITIMATELY?

    The answer to that is clear to anyone who knows their Catholic Faith. And the appropriate reaction of Catholics to such an abuse of authority has been long known - for example, the teaching of St Vincent of Lerins in his Commonitorium: reject the novelty and adhere to Tradition which is beyond danger of corruption.

    You want us to accept your novelty that if an authority were to act illegitimately on such a grand scale, that we must not only reject the novelties, but must also reject the authority that promulgates them without any judgement of the Church. That is not Church teaching, even if some theologian or other may have once discussed it. And here is the big problem with Sedevacantism: taking a possible opinion (if indeed it is) and making it dogma.

    The Good Lord gave us the grace of the First Vatican Council on the eve of this great crisis so that the limits that exist to papal infallibility would be beyond dispute, so that Catholics would not be so easily scandalised. 

    The Papal Magisterium and the Church's Universal Discipline are not corrupt, never have been and never will be. 



       

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #33 on: April 15, 2023, 11:29:00 PM »
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  • Cite one theologian who has ever held or taught that the Pope as Pope (not as a private doctor) could freely engage his papal authority to corrupt Catholic doctrine and public worship?  Only "theologians" you'll find who hold that theory are the likes of Martin Luther, those among the Eatern Orthodox, and the Old Catholics ... whose statements to that effect were condemned as heretical.
    It's simply not true, it is discussed by theologians, but you want to put your arbitrary limits on how far God would allow it to go:

    Here is a sample immediately at hand:

    1. BILLUART

    Another objector remarked that the Church would be deprived of a remedy if she could not subject the Pope to the Council in the case that he would be harmful and would seek to subvert her.

    Billuart replied that:
    If the pope sought to HARM HER IN THE FAITH, he would be manifestly heretical, and he would thereby lose the Pontificate: however it should be necessary a declaration of the Church in order to deny him obedience, as we have said above. (Cursus theologiœ, Pars II-II, Brescia, 1838, p. 125)

    2. BELLARMINE

    On The Church, Vol I, Bk II, On The Authority of Councils, Ch XIX, The Responses of Our Adversaries are Refuted:

    But they will say, therefore, only the Church remains without an efficacious human remedy if it has a bad Pope, and the Pope can disturb all things unpunished, and destroy and no one will be able to resist.


    I respond: No wonder, if the Church remains without an efficacious human remedy, seeing that its safety does not rest principally upon human industry, but divine protection, since God is its king. Therefore, even if the Church could not depose a Pope, still, it may and must beg the Lord that He would apply the remedy, and it is certain that God has care of its safety, that he would either convert the Pope or abolish him from the midst before he destroys the Church. Nevertheless, it does not follow from here that it is not lawful to resist a Pope destroying the Church; for it is lawful to admonish him while preserving all reverence, and to modestly correct him, even to oppose him with force and arms if he means to destroy the Church. For to resist and repel by force of arms, no authority is required. See more on this with Juan Torquemada, lib. 2 cap. 106.

    A Pope destroying the Church! Who would have believed it! The very opposite function from what God established, the edification of the Church "upon this Rock I will build my Church". God will intervene, says St Robert, before the Pope destroys the Church. You will say this does not mention the faith or the sacraments. That is a lame response indeed. Nor does it exclude such a possibility. A Pope destroying the Church! How indeed would he accomplish such a thing if not abusing His God-given authority to undermine the Faith?


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #34 on: April 16, 2023, 12:02:52 AM »
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  • I would agree with you, Ladislaus, if you had said, rather, the LEGITIMATE exercise of legitimate papal authority. All theologians would also then agree with you, no doubt.

    This is the issue, however: LEGITIMATE exercise of papal authority.

    The whole drama of the "revolution in tiara and cope" of the Second Vatican Council and all the innovations that followed, is one of ILLEGITIMATE exercise of papal authority, as if that authority had been constituted by God to innovate and not to preserve and clarify.

    Is it possible for a LEGITIMATE authority to act ILLEGITIMATELY?

    The answer to that is clear to anyone who knows their Catholic Faith. And the appropriate reaction of Catholics to such an abuse of authority has been long known - for example, the teaching of St Vincent of Lerins in his Commonitorium: reject the novelty and adhere to Tradition which is beyond danger of corruption.

    You want us to accept your novelty that if an authority were to act illegitimately on such a grand scale, that we must not only reject the novelties, but must also reject the authority that promulgates them without any judgement of the Church. That is not Church teaching, even if some theologian or other may have once discussed it. And here is the big problem with Sedevacantism: taking a possible opinion (if indeed it is) and making it dogma.

    The Good Lord gave us the grace of the First Vatican Council on the eve of this great crisis so that the limits that exist to papal infallibility would be beyond dispute, so that Catholics would not be so easily scandalised.

    The Papal Magisterium and the Church's Universal Discipline are not corrupt, never have been and never will be.



     

    Could any "pope" change the First Commandment and turn the Catholic Faith into Chrislam?

    The CCC quoting Lumen Gentium:
    841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."



    Is Allah Jesus' Father?  

    Should we pray the "Our Allah"?




    Acta Apostolicae Sedis CXI, n. 3 (March 2019), pp. 349-356

    The heresy itself appears on p. 353, in Italian: “Il pluralismo e le diversità di religione, di colore, di sesso, di razza e di lingua sono una sapiente volontà divina, con la quale Dio ha creato gli esseri umani.”
    For Francis to proclaim in his official acts that a diversity of religions is (positively) willed by God, therefore, proves he cannot be a true Pope. Game over!
    https://novusordowatch.org/2022/02/human-fraternity-declaration-becomes-papal-act/


    How many gods are there anyway???



    Not only can that not be a true pope,

    THAT CANNOT BE THE TRUE CHURCH.  

    That is NOT Jesus' religion.

    That is NOT HIS CHURCH.








    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #35 on: April 16, 2023, 04:50:09 AM »
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  • No, I have watch their videos, found errors, and have forgotten those errors. I'd have to go back and find them again. My memory isn't very good, so to keep things simple I know I can watch their videos for food for thought, but can't trust their quotes to include sufficient context or be interpreted correctly. Basically, I've learned to trust nobody when it comes to finding the truth for reasons I won't get into now, though there are people deserving of more trust than others. That is why I have started a few threads to let you guys point me to where I should look, cause me to ask more questions, and give me different perspectives to consider. I welcome any relevant Dimond videos, but I caution those who really like their content to do their own research to make sure the Dimonds really did get it right.
    Look here.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse