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Author Topic: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office  (Read 2790 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2023, 09:01:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 13, 2023, 04:29:56 PM
    Transcribed it from the above-mentioned video. Unfortunately I couldn't find the docuмent anywhere. Pity that the brothers don't release the whole docuмent.
    Well, they are known to take things out of context to better draw their preferred conclusions, which is why they are dangerous to watch, and are best just used for their opinions and not as a trustworthy source of truth.
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    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #16 on: April 13, 2023, 09:42:26 PM »
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    • Papal Heresy?

    Just call it what it really is:

    DEMON WORSHIP

    The guy is worshiping demons.

    Is he a "material demon worshiper" or a "formal demon worshiper"?

    Who cares?

    He is IN YOUR FACE worshiping demons.

    It's the abomination of desolation in the holy place.


    "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." 


    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, 

    (OR MAYBE SOMEBODY DRESSED LIKE A POPE??) 

    preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."

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    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #17 on: April 14, 2023, 06:23:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on April 13, 2023, 09:01:27 PM
    Well, they are known to take things out of context to better draw their preferred conclusions, which is why they are dangerous to watch, and are best just used for their opinions and not as a trustworthy source of truth.
    Name one out of context quote they abused.

    Meanwhile the whole RnR abuses Galatians and Bellarmine and many, like Salza, just plain lie about him.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #18 on: April 14, 2023, 06:33:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on April 13, 2023, 09:42:26 PM
    Papal Heresy?

    Just call it what it really is:

    DEMON WORSHIP

    The guy is worshiping demons.

    Is he a "material demon worshiper" or a "formal demon worshiper"?

    Who cares?

    He is IN YOUR FACE worshiping demons.

    It's the abomination of desolation in the holy place.


    "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."


    "But though we, or an angel from heaven,

    (OR MAYBE SOMEBODY DRESSED LIKE A POPE??)

    preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."
    Thanks for putting it in perspective. It really isn't the academic issue its made out to be. It's just obvious.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #19 on: April 14, 2023, 07:44:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 14, 2023, 06:23:13 AM
    Name one out of context quote they abused.

    Meanwhile the whole RnR abuses Galatians and Bellarmine and many, like Salza, just plain lie about him.
    You should start a thread: All the errors of the Dimond brothers. It may be a while before I get to it because I am currently researching issues regarding the Pope, and don't have the time to watch a bunch of Dimond videos to find their errors. I think there were some in the Dimond v Cassman debate, and when proving John Paul II is the antichrist, they leave out parts of revelation, which could work against their theory. Litterally they drop out a verse here and there in revelation that could change the meaning and context. Basically, just watch their videos and look up for yourself what they quote, and read a little before and after to make sure they are interpreting it correctly.
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    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #20 on: April 15, 2023, 09:33:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on April 14, 2023, 07:44:02 PM
    You should start a thread: All the errors of the Dimond brothers. It may be a while before I get to it because I am currently researching issues regarding the Pope, and don't have the time to watch a bunch of Dimond videos to find their errors. I think there were some in the Dimond v Cassman debate, and when proving John Paul II is the antichrist, they leave out parts of revelation, which could work against their theory. Litterally they drop out a verse here and there in revelation that could change the meaning and context. Basically, just watch their videos and look up for yourself what they quote, and read a little before and after to make sure they are interpreting it correctly.

    So you've determined that the Dimonds are in error before even examining their videos to "find" them.  That demonstrates intellectual dishonesty.  As for JP2 being the Antichrist, that's just there opinion about an interpretation of Scripture and applying it to the present Crisis, and ... who cares?  We've had saints preaching and saying that the ends times were nigh since almost the day of Our Lord's Ascension.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #21 on: April 15, 2023, 09:37:50 AM »
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    • I don't really care about the controverted matter of the heresy and the loss of papal office.  We're never going to solve that dispute here.  There are a wide variety of opinions out there among theologians who are far more qualified to debate the matter than we.

    I care only about the heretical non-Catholic contention that the Catholic Church can become corrupt through the free exercise of legitimate papal authority.  NO THEOLOGIAN EVER held this view.  Period.  End of debate.  Arguing Cajetan vs. Bellarmine or any of the other "5 opinions" is a distraction from the fact that these men were debating the Pope falling into heresy as a PRIVATE DOCTOR (i.e. as a private individual).  ABSOLUTELY NO CATHOLIC before the advent of R&R has ever believed that the Papal Magisterium and the Church's Universal Disciplien could go corrupt ... only various heretical groups, such as the Prots, Eastern Orthodox, and the Old Catholics.  Popes and Councils have condemned the heresies of this group that claimed that the Church had become corrupt in their day.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #22 on: April 15, 2023, 09:45:08 AM »
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    • “Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #23 on: April 15, 2023, 10:02:03 AM »
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    • An old post from Roman Theo:

    “An occult heretic, according to Bellarmine and everyone else, is a Catholic who is in formal heresy and hence lacks the virtue of faith, yet who has not publicly left the Church or been expelled from the Church.  As long as the culprit remains externally united to the Church, he remains an occult heretic, even if his materially heretical acts are public.

    In fact, in his chapter on occult heretics in De Ecclesia Militante (cap x), Bellarmine teaches that it is infallibly certain that everyone who is externally united to the Church is a member of the Body of the Church. 

    Fr. Joseph Cliffort Fenton describes what Bellarmine meant by an occult heretic in his article, Scholastic Definitions of the Church, that he published in the American Ecclesiastical Review.

    "Thus Francis Suarez, who held exclusively to the formula congregatio fidelium as a definition of the Church, actually insisted that catechumens are members of this society, and that occult heretics are not (cf. Opus de Triplici Virtute Theologica [Lyons, 1621], Tract. I, Disp. 9, sect. 1, pp. 156-62). On the other hand, St. Robert Bellarmine, who held for the second type of definition, denied that catechumens are members, and taught that occult heretics are within the Church until they are expelled, or until they leave this organization through public apostacy (cf. De Ecclesia Militante, chaps. 3, 10).” (Fenton, Scholastic Definitions of the Church, Part III, American Ecclesiastical Review).

    A "manifest heretic" is not someone who manifest heresy, which is what most sedevacantists have been led to believe.  A manifest heretic is someone who has either been expelled from the Church, or has publicly left the Church of their own will. 

    None of the Conciliar popes have come remotely close to meeting Bellarmine's definition of a manifest heretic.  It would have required a conviction of heresy by bishops at a council for any of them to be considered manifest heretics, or to be deprived of their pontifical dignity or authority, according to the teaching of Bellarmine.”
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #24 on: April 15, 2023, 10:09:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 15, 2023, 09:45:08 AM
    “Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)

    So what?  Besides, this is from before VI, after which time Bellarmine's opinion became dominant ... thus the citations from the pre-V2 theology manuals.  In either case, this has not been decided by the Church and your putting it in bold doesn't make it true.

    Apparently, I have to repeat:  NO THEOLOGIAN EVER believed or taught that the Pope as Pope in the free exercise of his authority could corrupt the Magisterium and the Public Worship of the Church.  Period.  This has nothing to do with whether the V2 Popes are heretics, blackmailed, illegitimately elected, drugged, or replaced by doubles.  Keep debating it with yourself all you want.  It's a distraction from the main heresy held and promoted by many R&R, despite the fact that +Lefebvre never adhered to this heresy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #25 on: April 15, 2023, 10:11:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 15, 2023, 10:02:03 AM
    An old post from Roman Theo:

    Do you have to keep re-demonstrating that there are 5 opinions on the subject and putting the one you like in bold?  Every knows that there are 5 opinions and neither your genius nor that of Roman Theo is going to persuade people that Bellarmine was wrong.  Nor will the other side convince you.

    You continue to distract from the central issue.  Cite one theologian who has ever held or taught that the Pope as Pope (not as a private doctor) could freely engage his papal authority to corrupt Catholic doctrine and public worship?  Only "theologians" you'll find who hold that theory are the likes of Martin Luther, those among the Eatern Orthodox, and the Old Catholics ... whose statements to that effect were condemned as heretical.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #26 on: April 15, 2023, 10:17:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 15, 2023, 10:09:12 AM
    So what?  Besides, this is from before VI, after which time Bellarmine's opinion became dominant ... thus the citations from the pre-V2 theology manuals.  In either case, this has not been decided by the Church and your putting it in bold doesn't make it true.

    Apparently, I have to repeat:  NO THEOLOGIAN EVER believed or taught that the Pope as Pope in the free exercise of his authority could corrupt the Magisterium and the Public Worship of the Church.  Period.  This has nothing to do with whether the V2 Popes are heretics, blackmailed, illegitimately elected, drugged, or replaced by doubles.  Keep debating it with yourself all you want.  It's a distraction from the main heresy held and promoted by many R&R, despite the fact that +Lefebvre never adhered to this heresy.

    I have already cited Bellarmine in my favor in my previous post.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #27 on: April 15, 2023, 10:19:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 15, 2023, 10:11:35 AM
    Do you have to keep re-demonstrating that there are 5 opinions on the subject and putting the one you like in bold?  Every knows that there are 5 opinions and neither your genius nor that of Roman Theo is going to persuade people that Bellarmine was wrong.  Nor will the other side convince you.

    You continue to distract from the central issue.  Cite one theologian who has ever held or taught that the Pope as Pope (not as a private doctor) could freely engage his papal authority to corrupt Catholic doctrine and public worship?  Only "theologians" you'll find who hold that theory are the likes of Martin Luther, those among the Eatern Orthodox, and the Old Catholics ... whose statements to that effect were condemned as heretical.

    Better yet: Please explain why Bellarmine was wrong to believe occult heretics remain in the Church (as cited above).

    Then explain why, according to Billuart, the common opinion of theologians went even further, and says even manifest heretics retain their jurisdiction until a declaratory sentence.

    Finally, point me to the provision of Vatican I which refutes or precludes Bellarmine, Billuart, and the common opinion of theologians on this point.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #28 on: April 15, 2023, 12:38:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 15, 2023, 10:19:25 AM
    Better yet: Please explain why Bellarmine was wrong to believe occult heretics remain in the Church (as cited above).

    Then explain why, according to Billuart, the common opinion of theologians went even further, and says even manifest heretics retain their jurisdiction until a declaratory sentence.

    Finally, point me to the provision of Vatican I which refutes or precludes Bellarmine, Billuart, and the common opinion of theologians on this point.

    Odd. Billuart held the opposite and less common opinion to Bellarmine that even occult heretics who had not publicly manifested their heresy were not members of the Church (see cited Fr. Fenton article, page 214 - the opinion of Sylvius, page 211), since they lacked the requisite supernatural bond of faith with Christ.

    The opinion, contrary to Bellarmine's, that even occult heretics who have not manifested their heresy publicly are not members of the Church is a permissible opinion on that still open question. Father Fenton talks about it here:

    Status_St_Robert_Bellarmine_Membership_Occult_Heretics_Church.pdf (ecclesiamilitans.com)

    My own view is that the question is an academic one, since, even if Francis is not a member and not pope, he de facto is pope, sitting in the seat, making cardinals, etc., with no rival claimant out there.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #29 on: April 15, 2023, 01:03:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 15, 2023, 09:33:17 AM
    So you've determined that the Dimonds are in error before even examining their videos to "find" them.  That demonstrates intellectual dishonesty.  
    No, I have watch their videos, found errors, and have forgotten those errors. I'd have to go back and find them again. My memory isn't very good, so to keep things simple I know I can watch their videos for food for thought, but can't trust their quotes to include sufficient context or be interpreted correctly. Basically, I've learned to trust nobody when it comes to finding the truth for reasons I won't get into now, though there are people deserving of more trust than others. That is why I have started a few threads to let you guys point me to where I should look, cause me to ask more questions, and give me different perspectives to consider. I welcome any relevant Dimond videos, but I caution those who really like their content to do their own research to make sure the Dimonds really did get it right.
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    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"
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