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Author Topic: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office  (Read 2781 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
« on: April 13, 2023, 02:48:08 PM »
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    • Lots of food for thought in this video, it makes me think of many questions, which I will list at a later time.

    The whole video is worth watching to the end, because whenever you think Fr MacGillivray is done he suddenly starts quoting more sources. I found it easy enough to understand at a full 2x speed (only 1 hr long).



    What questions were not asked? What more should be said? Lets tie up any loose ends. It seems to me that, though the video may start off a bit weak as far as convincing a sede not to be sede, by the end it seems to be the safest conclusion not to be a sedevacantist.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #1 on: April 13, 2023, 03:02:59 PM »
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    • It's not either-or.  It's not sede vs non-sede.  That's a false dichotomy.  This is the whole problem with modern Traditionalism, and modern America at large - stuffing every debate into only 2 options.  This isn't a rational response to a complex question.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #2 on: April 13, 2023, 03:51:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 13, 2023, 03:02:59 PM
    It's not either-or.  It's not sede vs non-sede.  
    Right, that's not my intention, but it is one part of the big picture. I'm open to the discussion of any topic relevant to the video.
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    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #3 on: April 13, 2023, 03:58:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 13, 2023, 03:02:59 PM
    It's not sede vs non-sede.  
    If A is a propostion, either A is the case or A is not the case.


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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #4 on: April 13, 2023, 04:02:45 PM »
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    • The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se (by its very nature) separates the heretic from the Church.  The effect, whether pope or not, is the same.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #5 on: April 13, 2023, 04:04:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on April 13, 2023, 02:48:08 PM
    Lots of food for thought in this video, it makes me think of many questions, which I will list at a later time.

    The whole video is worth watching to the end, because whenever you think Fr MacGillivray is done he suddenly starts quoting more sources. I found it easy enough to understand at a full 2x speed (only 1 hr long).



    What questions were not asked? What more should be said? Lets tie up any loose ends. It seems to me that, though the video may start off a bit weak as far as convincing a sede not to be sede, by the end it seems to be the safest conclusion not to be a sedevacantist.
    Quite confident are we?

    I randomly skipped to 31:00 talking about Canon 188.4

    Straight away his deflection is crushed by Inter Cunctas:

    Go listen to the priest again, listen to the word he uses: "manifest". Now read:

    Pope Martin V is talking about Jansenists who profess to be Catholic destroying the Lefebvrites objection that one defects only by ceasing to profess Catholicism.

    Pope Martin V, Inter Cunctas, Feb. 22, 1418:
    „And if such public and manifest heretics, although not yet declared by the Church, should pass away in this grave crime, let them be deprived of ecclesiastical burial, and let not offerings be made or received for them.“

    The priest says at 32:20 that Francis claims to be Catholic so that means he is Catholic. WRONG! Pope Martin V destroys that notion.

    This priest wouldn't last 5 minutes in a debate against Br. Peter or any half-competent sedevacantist.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #6 on: April 13, 2023, 04:06:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on April 13, 2023, 04:02:45 PM
    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se (by its very nature) separates the heretic from the Church.  The effect, whether pope or not, is the same.
    And public and manifest heresy is recognized by the very fact of the sin being committed in the public square. See the red part.

    Pope Martin V, Inter Cunctas, Feb. 22, 1418:

    „And if such public and manifest heretics, although not yet declared by the Church, should pass away in this grave crime, let them be deprived of ecclesiastical burial, and let not offerings be made or received for them.
    Nevertheless the goods of the same individuals, forfeited according to canonical sanctions from the time of the crime committed, should not be appropriated by those to whom they would otherwise belong, until a declaratory sentence concerning the crime itself of heresy has been promulgated by ecclesiastical judges of this kind having authority in such a matter.“
    „Not forgetting everyone else who exercises temporal jurisdiction according to the form and demands of the law – to expel from kingdoms, provinces, cities, towns, castles, villages, lands and all the other aforementioned places and dominions, each and every heretic of this kind (...) whom publicly or mainfestly through evidence of the fact, like those implicated in the crime of usury, they know to be heretical, and to treat them as diseased sheep infecting the flock of the Lord...“


    I skipped around to 52:10 and the priest admits the whole point of contention upon which hangs the whole debate is whether someone is a manifest heretic simply by manifesting his heresy.

    Thanks Fr. MacGillivray for inadvertently admitting Inter Cunctas ends the debate.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #7 on: April 13, 2023, 04:26:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 13, 2023, 04:06:35 PM
    And public and manifest heresy is recognized by the very fact of the sin being committed in the public square. See the red part.

    Correct.  Where did you get the English translation of Inter Cunctas?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #8 on: April 13, 2023, 04:29:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on April 13, 2023, 04:26:07 PM
    Correct.  Where did you get the English translation of Inter Cunctas?
    Transcribed it from the above-mentioned video. Unfortunately I couldn't find the docuмent anywhere. Pity that the brothers don't release the whole docuмent.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #9 on: April 13, 2023, 04:52:38 PM »
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    • This subject is as old as the NO itself and many of the debates on the subject have been answered decades ago. Take the time to listen to one of the Dimond's interview with Fr. Wathen some 35 years ago or so and see for yourself. 

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #10 on: April 13, 2023, 04:54:03 PM »
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    • It's a good thing there's fresh blood around here because I just can't anymore....lol.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #11 on: April 13, 2023, 07:51:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 13, 2023, 04:04:52 PM
    Quite confident are we?

    I randomly skipped to 31:00 talking about Canon 188.4

    Straight away his deflection is crushed by Inter Cunctas:

    Go listen to the priest again, listen to the word he uses: "manifest". Now read:

    Pope Martin V is talking about Jansenists who profess to be Catholic destroying the Lefebvrites objection that one defects only by ceasing to profess Catholicism.

    Pope Martin V, Inter Cunctas, Feb. 22, 1418:
    „And if such public and manifest heretics, although not yet declared by the Church, should pass away in this grave crime, let them be deprived of ecclesiastical burial, and let not offerings be made or received for them.“

    The priest says at 32:20 that Francis claims to be Catholic so that means he is Catholic. WRONG! Pope Martin V destroys that notion.

    This priest wouldn't last 5 minutes in a debate against Br. Peter or any half-competent sedevacantist.
    He covers various angles. I think this is a bad video to just choose a random 5min to watch. Thanks for your input about the section you watched, it is very helpful, but please watch the rest and see what else you would argue against him.

    Quote from: Stubborn on April 13, 2023, 04:52:38 PM
    This subject is as old as the NO itself and many of the debates on the subject have been answered decades ago. 
    I'm sure it is, but this thread is for me to learn more, and some info may be posted here pointing me in a direction that I may not have found so soon, if at all, as I search these topics.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #12 on: April 13, 2023, 08:08:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 13, 2023, 04:54:03 PM
    It's a good thing there's fresh blood around here because I just can't anymore....lol.
    What can't you, 2V?
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #13 on: April 13, 2023, 08:14:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on April 13, 2023, 08:08:21 PM
    What can't you, 2V?
    "I just can't" is a sort of internet slang for "I can't deal with this". It's a joking way of saying something has grown too tiresome to bother with.

    In this case she's saying seeing the exact same sede debate being brought up for the millionth time is wearisome.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Papal Heresy and Loss of Office
    « Reply #14 on: April 13, 2023, 08:21:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 13, 2023, 08:14:39 PM
    "I just can't" is a sort of internet slang for "I can't deal with this". It's a joking way of saying something has grown too tiresome to bother with.

    In this case she's saying seeing the exact same sede debate being brought up for the millionth time is wearisome.
    Yes, thank you Forlorn. 

    I don't mean to be disrespectful to the newbies though.  
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