Author Topic: Pants and Women  (Read 3048 times)

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Offline mobius

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Pants and Women
« on: March 15, 2014, 02:11:15 AM »
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  • Unless your Sick (medical reasons), Homeless, or some great Necessity - it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

    Deuteronomy 22:5:

    "A woman shall not be clothed with man' s apparel, neither shall a man use woman' s apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God."


    YOU CAN TELL A WOMAN ABOUT THESE THINGS AND SHE WILL BELIEVE:

    1. THE HOLY TRINITY
    2. THAT JESUS CHRIST IS BOTH GOD AND MAN
    3. THAT HE FOUNDED ONE TRUE CHURCH, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    4. OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION
    5. ABORTION IS A MORTAL SIN
    6. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A MORTAL SIN
    7. BIRTH CONTROL (NATURAL OR ARTIFICIAL) IS A MORTAL SIN

    HOWEVER, IF YOU SAY, STAY HOME, OBEY YOUR HUSBAND AND LOVE HIM 2ND TO GOD, DRESS MODESTLY, AND ABOVE ALL - NO PANTS - YOU LOSE!

    EVEN MANY SO-CALLED TRADITIONALISTS BELIEVE THIS, THAT IS, IT IS OK TO WEAR MEN'S ATTIRE.

    SHOULD MEN WEAR DRESSES AND BRAS?

    Offline clare

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 04:56:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: mobius
    Unless your Sick (medical reasons), Homeless, or some great Necessity - it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

    Deuteronomy 22:5:

    "A woman shall not be clothed with man' s apparel, neither shall a man use woman' s apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God."


    If Moses were to hop into a time machine and arrive in our time, he would not be wondering why women are wearing men's attire, but he would be wondering why both men and women are wearing trousers, which must look an awful lot like underwear to him!


    Offline Jehanne

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 01:29:46 PM »
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  • I wrote an essay on this topic several years ago on my personal blog:

    Quote
    Women & girls should only wear skirts and/or dresses.

    That women (and hence, girls) should only wear women's clothing is plainly taught in Sacred Scripture:

    "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel, neither shall a man use woman's apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

    Of course, naysayers of this opinion will say that the Bible does not teach that women can only wear skirts/dresses.  They will say, "Look at Mary and Joseph! Joseph did not wear pants.  Or, look at Chinese women, they wear pants or pant-like clothes."  In using these arguments, they are ignoring a fundamental principle:

    Women's clothing does not always consist of dresses and/or skirts, but dresses and/or skirts are always women's clothing.

    It is simple question-begging to say that women should only wear skirts/dresses, for if pants/trousers were acceptable for women to wear, why did women, for centuries, not wear those types of clothing?  To say that it was "only cultural" is to ignore the arguments of the culture, which, for centuries, cited Deuteronomy 22:5 as the reason why women/girls could only wear skirts. A small minority of little girls and young ladies, for centuries, would on occasion don pants, and when discovered, their Moms & Grandmothers would sit them down, open up their Bibles, and read Deuteronomy 22:5, which they would cite as the reason why they needed to, immediately, change their clothes.  As a matter of fact, historically, it was rather unthinkable until the early 1900s for a woman to be in pants or trousers, and even then, such was the rare exception.  Prior to 1900, such overt cross-dressing was very rare (the early advocates of women's suffrage were heckled in public for wearing pants, forcing almost all of them to return to skirts), and almost unheard of prior to 1800.  Of course, there were some exceptions, as I will discuss further on.

    Roman Catholic canon law and Magisterial teaching took Deuteronomy 22:5 literally.  The Synod of Gangra, called by Constantine, condemned the wearing of men's clothing by women:

    Canon XIII:  If any woman, under pretence of asceticism, shall change her apparel and, instead of a woman’s accustomed clothing, shall put on that of a man, let her be anathema.

    Likewise, Saint Thomas teaches,

    "As stated in the foregoing Article, outward apparel should be consistent with the estate of the person, according to the general custom. Hence it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear man's clothes, or vice versa; especially since this may be a cause of sensuous pleasure; and it is expressly forbidden in the Law (Deuteronomy 22) because the Gentiles used to practice this change of attire for the purpose of idolatrous superstition. Nevertheless this may be done sometimes without sin on account of some necessity, either in order to hide oneself from enemies, or through lack of other clothes, or for some similar motive." (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.169, a.2, ad 3)

    Of course, some will say that pants are "women's clothing," which at best would be an argument that says that objective moral values should capitulate to modern secularized "values."  However, this "argument" ignores the evidence.  Even in 2011, skirts/dresses are still "women's clothing."  California Code - Section 12947.5 states the following:

    "(a)It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to refuse to permit an employee to wear pants on account of the sex of the employee."

    Of course, this is question begging.  If skirts/dresses were not "women's clothing," why would some employers be forcing women to wear them, and what motivation would there be for the California legislature to grant women legal protection to wear pants?

    Likewise, AB 196 provides legal protection to transgender men who wish to wear skirts/dresses, requiring that "that each employee be permitted to dress in accordance with the employee’s gender identity."

    So, in conclusion, the California Code of Law provides legal protection to women who do not wish to wear dresses and/or skirts as well as legal protection to men who do wish to wear dresses and/or skirts.

    Finally, some will appeal to Pope Nicholas I, who wrote to King Boris I of Bulgaria: "Whether you or your women wear or do not wear trousers neither impedes your salvation nor leads to any increase of your virtue" (sive vos, sive feminae vestrae, sive deponatis, sive induatis femoralia, nec saluti officit, nec ad virtutum vestrarum proficit incrementum - Patrologia Latina, CXIX, 1002).

    Pope Nicholas was, however, addressing Bulgar women and not other Catholic women.  If you are Chinese, then, yes, certainly, you are absolutely free to dress according to your own culture, which is what Saint Thomas taught.  However, as Cardinal Siri noted in his letter Men's Dress Worn By Women, in Western culture women have, historically, worn skirts/dresses and men have worn pants/trousers, which has been the custom for centuries.  To say that modernistic secularism can change this immutable truth is to say that modernistic secularism can change other immutable truths of natural and divine law, which is both heretical and absurd.

    To say that women should wear pants/shorts is also to ignore what the Blessed Virgin Mary revealed at Fatima when She stated, "Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son."


    http://unamsanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/04/women-girls-should-only-wear-skirts.html

    Offline Matto

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 02:27:17 PM »
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  • I don't think women should wear pants. This makes some people angry.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Cantarella

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 04:48:44 PM »
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  • I would never ever ever wear pants. I think pants are masculine, and therefore women should not wear them because it is offensive to God and not becoming to women. I always wear skirts and clearly feminine clothes. This also includes textures and colors. I also enjoy covering my head even outside Church. The way one look outside should clearly reflect one's soul disposition inside.

    I wish they were more genuinely Catholic clothing options for women. I do not like the protestant puritan look of the prairies, which is plain, unfitting, and ugly and I don't want to support muslim businesses either, although I recognize they have pretty outfits sometimes. Shopping for clothes is very time-consuming for me and surprisigly not that enjoyable but it is because of the fewness of options.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline clare

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 04:53:09 PM »
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  • I accept Deuteronomy, and if it were to add that "pants are male attire" I would have no problem at all accepting that too.

    But there is nothing about bifurcated garments worn from the waist down which make them only ever ontologically appropriate for males; and they weren't attire for men or women when Moses was writing. So why, if he were to arrive in our time, would he automatically recognise them as male attire?

    It's just that men wore them first. And that was a cultural thing. This is one of those traditions of men that we are not to get hung up on.

    (I wear skirts, and have done for years, except for physiotherapy.)

    Offline Matto

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #6 on: March 15, 2014, 04:55:14 PM »
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  • Are you okay with men wearing women's dresses?
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Cantarella

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2014, 04:58:13 PM »
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  • From Jeanne's article:

    " If you are Chinese, then, yes, certainly, you are absolutely free to dress according to your own culture, which is what Saint Thomas taught.  However, as Cardinal Siri noted in his letter Men's Dress Worn By Women, in Western culture women have, historically, worn skirts/dresses and men have worn pants/trousers, which has been the custom for centuries.  To say that modernistic secularism can change this immutable truth is to say that modernistic secularism can change other immutable truths of natural and divine law, which is both heretical and absurd".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline mobius

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 11:01:10 PM »
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  • Please tell US where Saint Thomas Aquinas taught a woman (Chinese) or otherwise could wear Pants (regularly)? Thanks.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 12:17:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Are you okay with men wearing women's dresses?


    Like the tunics of long ago?  It is a dress for a man.  Or a kilt?  It is a skirt for a man.

    As far as I know men did not wear pants in OT times, so what was it that differentiated a man's robe/tunic from a woman's robe/tunic?  I do not know, maybe someone here does?  

    Marsha

    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 12:35:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Are you okay with men wearing women's dresses?


    Kilts are skirts, I don't think it makes men look like women.
    Cassocks could be construed as dresses, but they aren't.
    Kimono's are not pants, so ...

    Women shouldn't wear pants, period.  
    Mainly because they will look like men and revealing parts that should be covered by a skirt causes men to lust, as I was told by some men.

    Men shouldn't wear outfits that amplify their private parts either even if they are pants.



    Offline Cantarella

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 01:01:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: mobius
    Please tell US where Saint Thomas Aquinas taught a woman (Chinese) or otherwise could wear Pants (regularly)? Thanks.


    I was just citing Jeanne's article paragraph concerning the pants in women but you totally misunderstood the quote, (as I was firmly opposing that women wear pants), Mobius.  :rolleyes: but given that you insist...here it is:


    I think that in his article, he (Jeanne) was refering to the following St Thomas teaching found in Summa Theological:

    Article 2. Whether the adornment of women is devoid of mortal sin?

    "Outward apparel should be consistent with the estate of the person, according to the general custom. Hence it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear man's clothes, or vice versa; especially since this may be a cause of sensuous pleasure; and it is expressly forbidden in the Law (Deuteronomy 22) because the Gentiles used to practice this change of attire for the purpose of idolatrous superstition. Nevertheless this may be done sometimes without sin on account of some necessity, either in order to hide oneself from enemies, or through lack of other clothes, or for some similar motive".

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3169.htm
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 06:55:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    I accept Deuteronomy, and if it were to add that "pants are male attire" I would have no problem at all accepting that too.

    ....and they weren't attire for men or women when Moses was writing.



    I never really follow the whole pants debate, so I'm just curious - what specific apparel was Moses talking about back then?

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline bowler

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 07:44:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy

    Women shouldn't wear pants, period.  
    Mainly because they will look like men and revealing parts that should be covered by a skirt causes men to lust...

    Men shouldn't wear outfits that amplify their private parts either even if they are pants.



    Good points. As a man, I always say; what if I dressed that way;
    tight form fitted clothes that revealed my figure, tight tops revealing my shoulders and upper chest and arms, tight form fitted pants, and even tight form fitted kilts? Notice it is not just about pants.

    A substantial percentage of the women in my chapel, and the majority of young women in my chapel, wear tight form fitted stretch tops and dresses that reveal the form that is is below, even though they don't wear pants to mass. The immoral tight stretch sweater of Marylyn Monroe's time, is now consider standard trad clothing for  "a substantial percentage of the women in my chapel, and the majority of young women in my chapel".

    Offline clare

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    Pants and Women
    « Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 11:08:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Are you okay with men wearing women's dresses?


    Of course not. And I'm not ok with men wearing women's trousers either. I'm ok with them wearing kilts, but not skirts.

    I'm not ok with men wearing blouses, but I'm ok with them wearing shirts.

     

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