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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Geremia on July 24, 2016, 04:54:58 PM

Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Geremia on July 24, 2016, 04:54:58 PM
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: TKGS on July 24, 2016, 05:48:03 PM
How do sedevacantists explain what?  A better question, how do you explain a pope changing every single sacrament and teaching doctrines incompatible with Catholic dogma?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 24, 2016, 05:52:44 PM
Quote from: Geremia
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Matto on July 24, 2016, 05:58:56 PM
I wonder how much Padre Pio knew about Vatican II. Did he ever read the documents?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: songbird on July 24, 2016, 06:04:17 PM
Padre Pio never said the New Order mess.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 24, 2016, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: songbird
Padre Pio never said the New Order mess.


Again, he died in 1968. There was an interesting mix that happened between 1965-1969 where you had the altar facing the people but it was still sort of the Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo Mass didn't happen until Advent 1969.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: MyrnaM on July 24, 2016, 08:07:19 PM
All these letters, quotes and photos, are all exaggerated, photoshopped, and altered, changing definitions to fit the New Church, the New religion where one size fits all.  

Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 24, 2016, 08:39:08 PM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
letter from padre pio


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


OK, who downvoted me? This is true. In 1968, sedevacantism was basically limited to Francis Schuckardt and his chapel - Brown, Chicoine, the very early CMRI and his other organization. I can't imagine Padre Pio ever thinking Paul VI was invalid because the theory did not have much footing.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Geremia on July 24, 2016, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
In 1968, sedevacantism was basically limited to Francis Schuckardt and his chapel - Brown, Chicoine, the very early CMRI and his other organization.
What about Fr. Joaquin Sáenz y Arriaga in Mexico? Was he that early in his promotion of sedevacantism?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on July 25, 2016, 12:36:09 AM
Archbishop Thuc was perhaps the earliest public critic of Giovanni Montini.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 07:48:11 AM
No one had the hindsight in 1968 that we have now.  It took a while for people to realize that the purported head of the Church re-invented it from top to bottom because they kept the same building and mostly the same vestment and did not blow Satan's cover by coming out saying "I am a false Pope who is destroying the Church as will become even more clear during the next two years."  No?  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: MyrnaM on July 25, 2016, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
letter from padre pio


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


OK, who downvoted me? This is true. In 1968, sedevacantism was basically limited to Francis Schuckardt and his chapel - Brown, Chicoine, the very early CMRI and his other organization. I can't imagine Padre Pio ever thinking Paul VI was invalid because the theory did not have much footing.


Not me, I did not downvote you and to prove it, I just upvoted that reply of yours.  

Many times on this forum I have gotten downvoted just because I spoke the truth, sometimes the truth hurts others, and you have to accept that.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


I just gave you an upthumb.  I don't like petty down-thumbs either regardless of what side of the issue it is.  I have gotten them for post quotes from encyclicals or theologians.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on July 25, 2016, 09:05:06 AM
In 1968 Protestant Preachers and Jewish Rabbis were already appearing as
guests on the Pulpit in my Parish Church.  Heretical teachings were
being taught as Catechism in the classrooms such as all are saved, No one
goes to hell except for Nazi's and those that opposed the new way of
doing things and its new teachings. Priests that seen to be very conservative
in 1963 were teaching a new doctrines based on the teachings of Vatican 2.
If you wanted to keep your faith you would have to leave your parish
church, and withdraw your children from the Parochial School and join a
small Traditional Catholic Group with a Priest that would not go along with
the new ways.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 09:09:11 AM
Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
In 1968 Protestant Preachers and Jewish Rabbis were already appearing as
guests on the Pulpit in my Parish Church.  Heretical teachings were
being taught as Catechism in the classrooms such as all are saved, No one
goes to hell except for Nazi's and those that opposed the new way of
doing things and its new teachings. Priests that seen to be very conservative
in 1963 were teaching a new doctrines based on the teachings of Vatican 2.
If you wanted to keep your faith you would have to leave your parish
church, and withdraw your children from the Parochial School and join a
small Traditional Catholic Group with a Priest that would not go along with
the new ways.  


Thank you for this insight which I am sure is true.  You could see this already in the catechisms and formerly sound theologians started teaching what they believed was still the Catholic Church taught in their V2 ecclesiology.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Ladislaus on July 25, 2016, 09:49:17 AM
Bottom line is that Padre Pio was not omniscient (there are many examples of this from his life ... where he was mistaken about something or didn't know something when asked).  He was also not a trained theologian.  Beyond his natural abilities, he only knew what God gave him to know and God did not wish to reveal to him the vacancy of the Holy See (if indeed it was vacant).  So this really means nothing at the end of the day.  At the same time, God took him before he would have been commanded to offer the NOM.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on July 25, 2016, 10:03:31 AM
I remember an article that I read from at that time conservative publication
I believe it was the "The Wanderer" a Catholic weekly out of St. Paul, MN.
After Padre Pio died. There was reports coming from England from children
that he came down from Heaven and taught them catechism because
even in the very late 1960's catechisms were becoming terrible
throughout the English speaking world, not only in England.
Also I heard when Padre Pio's coffin was opened. His body was not there.
What we see today is just a waxed figure.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 10:14:52 AM
Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
I remember an article that I read from at that time conservative publication
I believe it was the "The Wanderer" a Catholic weekly out of St. Paul, MN.
After Padre Pio died. There was reports coming from England from children
that he came down from Heaven and taught them catechism because
even in the very late 1960's catechisms were becoming terrible
throughout the English speaking world, not only in England.
Also I heard when Padre Pio's coffin was opened. His body was not there.
What we see today is just a waxed figure.


Hmm.  Very interesting.  Thank you.  You lived through some serious stuff.  It seems you came through okay.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Mark 79 on July 25, 2016, 10:24:22 AM
EWTN is as trustworthy a source as Ilya Ehrenburg.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Alexandria on July 25, 2016, 11:58:15 AM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


I just gave you an upthumb.  I don't like petty down-thumbs either regardless of what side of the issue it is. I have gotten them for post quotes from encyclicals or theologians.


Neither do I, and I'm sure that agreeing with you will earn me a few from our more mature  :rolleyes: members.

Honestly, I asked the other day, and I will ask again:  how old are some of the folks here?  Are they mentally retarded?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 25, 2016, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: An even Seven
Antipope Benedict XIII was recognized by St. Vincent Ferrer as the Pope for a while during the Great Western Schism.
Even a great Saint does not know everything of what is going on at any given point.

Quote
Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Vincent Ferrer: "Vincent was one of the most resolute and faithful adherents of Benedict XIII, and by his word, sanctity, and miracles he did much to strengthen Benedict's position. It was not until 1416, when pressed by Ferdinand, King of Aragon, that he abandoned him. On 6 January, preaching at Perpignan, he declared anew to the vast throng gathered around his pulpit that Benedict XIII was the legitimate pope, but that, since he would not resign to bring peace to the Church, Ferdinand had withdrawn his states from the obedience of Avignon. This act must have caused Vincent much sorrow, for he was deeply attached to Benedict."


Not that it's ever been suggested but only in my opinion, I would not be surprised if this letter was forged or at least not actually written by Padre Pio.


Benedict XIII( as well as the rest of Fr popes during GWS) are Not anti-popes....  :fryingpan:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Alexandria on July 25, 2016, 12:01:53 PM
Quote from: songbird
Padre Pio never said the New Order mess.


Because he died in September of 1968 and the new Mass wasn't promulgated until 1969, that's why.



Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 12:12:07 PM
Quote from: Alexandria
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation
L'Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)


Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


I just gave you an upthumb.  I don't like petty down-thumbs either regardless of what side of the issue it is. I have gotten them for post quotes from encyclicals or theologians.


Neither do I, and I'm sure that agreeing with you will earn me a few from our more mature  :rolleyes: members.

Honestly, I asked the other day, and I will ask again:  how old are some of the folks here?  Are they mentally retarded?


You seem like a very pleasant lady.  Or at least you would if you were different.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 12:13:57 PM
Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: An even Seven
Antipope Benedict XIII was recognized by St. Vincent Ferrer as the Pope for a while during the Great Western Schism.
Even a great Saint does not know everything of what is going on at any given point.

Quote
Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Vincent Ferrer: "Vincent was one of the most resolute and faithful adherents of Benedict XIII, and by his word, sanctity, and miracles he did much to strengthen Benedict's position. It was not until 1416, when pressed by Ferdinand, King of Aragon, that he abandoned him. On 6 January, preaching at Perpignan, he declared anew to the vast throng gathered around his pulpit that Benedict XIII was the legitimate pope, but that, since he would not resign to bring peace to the Church, Ferdinand had withdrawn his states from the obedience of Avignon. This act must have caused Vincent much sorrow, for he was deeply attached to Benedict."


Not that it's ever been suggested but only in my opinion, I would not be surprised if this letter was forged or at least not actually written by Padre Pio.


Benedict XIII( as well as the rest of Fr popes during GWS) are Not anti-popes....  :fryingpan:


Technically they are "false-Popes" i.e. not Popes at all as "anti-Popes" exist in the face of real Popes.  

Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Alexandria on July 25, 2016, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Alexandria
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Geremia
A LETTER FROM PADRE PIO TO POPE PAUL VI

A short time before his death, Padre Pio, having In mind the Audience which the Chapter Members of his Order would have in the course of their General Chapter, wrote a letter to Pope Paul. In the letter he expressed his firm adherence to the Magisterium and its teachings, particularly mentioning the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae". Padre Pio also expressed his obedience, devotedness and filial sharing in the anxieties of His Holiness. The full text is as follows:

Your Holiness:

Availing myself of Your Holiness' meeting with the Capitular Fathers, I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

The Capuchin Order has always been among the first in their love, fidelity and reverence for the Holy See. I pray the Lord that its members remain ever thus, continuing their tradition of seriousness and religious asceticism evangelical poverty, faithful observance of the Rule and Constitutions, renewing themselves in vigorous living and deep interior spirit—always ready, at the least gesture from Your Holiness, to go forward at once to assist the Church in her needs.

I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae", and I reaffirm my own faith and my unconditional obedience to Your inspired directives.

May God grant truth to triumph, and, may pence be given to His Church, tranquility to the people of the earth, and health and prosperity to Your Holiness, so that when these disturbing clouds pass over, the Reign of God may triumph in all hearts, through the Apostolic Works of the Supreme Shepherd of all Christians.

Prostrate at Your feet, I beg you to bless me, my Brothers in religion, my spiritual sons, the "Praying Groups", all the sick—that we may faithfully fulfill the good works done in the Name of Jesus and under your protection.

Your Holiness' most humble servant,

                                                                         PADRE PIO, Capuchin

San Giovanni Rotondo, 12th September, 1968.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 October 1968, page 9

L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

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Not a sedevacantist. But:

Padre Pio died in 1968. In 1968, sedevacantism was just Francis Schukardt and his little boondocks, legalistic chapel. It wasn't until the Nine in Ecône where it became a bigger thing.

Someone like St. Pio would not have thought of that. To pretty much all but 4 people on Earth in 1968, being anything other than faithful to the Holy See is unthinkable.


I just gave you an upthumb.  I don't like petty down-thumbs either regardless of what side of the issue it is. I have gotten them for post quotes from encyclicals or theologians.


Neither do I, and I'm sure that agreeing with you will earn me a few from our more mature  :rolleyes: members.

Honestly, I asked the other day, and I will ask again:  how old are some of the folks here?  Are they mentally retarded?


You seem like a very pleasant lady.  Or at least you would if you were different.


Huh?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 01:24:46 PM
Quote
Huh?


It was a joke.  You seem rather knowledgeable and charitable which is refreshing compared to some few who are less so.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Disputaciones on July 25, 2016, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Alexandria
Are they mentally retarded?


I've asked myself the same thing.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Amakusa on July 25, 2016, 01:29:27 PM
Padre Pio wrote this letter because he knew that Paul VI was to become the Martyr Pope of the end times and one of the greatest saints of the New Covenant.

https://gloria.tv/text/QuVfDe6RARabLo4cR4pUgZ8hr

Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 01:36:11 PM
Quote from: Amakusa
Padre Pio wrote this letter because he knew that Paul VI was to become the Martyr Pope of the end times and one of the greatest saints of the New Covenant.

https://gloria.tv/text/QuVfDe6RARabLo4cR4pUgZ8hr



You must be a troll.  That is blasphemy.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 25, 2016, 01:39:19 PM
St Padre Pio's opinion on who is or isn't pope is irrelevant, as he is not infallible.  Just as our opinions are also irrelevant.  What IS relevant is that these popes hold the papal office, whether we like it or not.  They are NOT good popes, as anyone can see.  So, whether the post V2 guys are/were popes is irrelevant because a bad leader has the same effect (or worse) as no leader.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Matto on July 25, 2016, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Amakusa
Padre Pio wrote this letter because he knew that Paul VI was to become the Martyr Pope of the end times and one of the greatest saints of the New Covenant.

https://gloria.tv/text/QuVfDe6RARabLo4cR4pUgZ8hr



You must be a troll.  That is blasphemy.  

He is not a troll. He is a strange breed of traditional Catholic. He believes Pope Paul VI was replaced with a double and the double did all the bad things we think Paul VI did. Then the real Paul VI went into exile and suffered greatly. Now he thinks Pope Paul VI is still alive in exile, and is the true Pope. I think he even wrote a book about his theory. I don't believe it but he is not a troll.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 25, 2016, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
 What IS relevant is that these popes hold the papal office, whether we like it or not.


Wrong as there is No way the election of the v2 anti-popes can be construed as legal....

Gregory XVII is the true( legally elected)  Pope until 1989 and Catholics are bound to recognise him as such.  :fryingpan:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 01:56:00 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
St Padre Pio's opinion on who is or isn't pope is irrelevant, as he is not infallible.  Just as our opinions are also irrelevant.  What IS relevant is that these popes hold the papal office, whether we like it or not.  They are NOT good popes, as anyone can see.  So, whether the post V2 guys are/were popes is irrelevant because a bad leader has the same effect (or worse) as no leader.  


I understand your point.  But in the objective realm whether the men who purport to be the Vicars of Christ are is indeed relevant.  

But your point is a good one as far as it goes.  

A bad Pope can sin in scandalous ways, be imprudent and cowardly but will not bind on the Church what cannot be bound in Heaven or engage in heretical acts or teach heresy.  People can the Sacraments and Mass in place under him and the Saints he canonizes and the code of canon law he enforces and any council he approves.  They do not have to worry about him being a public heretic, worshiping in false religions or inventing new ones or teaching heresy.  

A non-Pope if mistaken for a true Pope will lead many into Hell with him such as those who follow him, those who resist him and those who disobey him.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 01:57:19 PM
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Amakusa
Padre Pio wrote this letter because he knew that Paul VI was to become the Martyr Pope of the end times and one of the greatest saints of the New Covenant.

https://gloria.tv/text/QuVfDe6RARabLo4cR4pUgZ8hr



You must be a troll.  That is blasphemy.  

He is not a troll. He is a strange breed of traditional Catholic. He believes Pope Paul VI was replaced with a double and the double did all the bad things we think Paul VI did. Then the real Paul VI went into exile and suffered greatly. Now he thinks Pope Paul VI is still alive in exile, and is the true Pope. I think he even wrote a book about his theory. I don't believe it but he is not a troll.


Thank you.  He is not aware of how Montini was labeled before he became Pope?

Wasn't he suspected of modernism under one of the Pius'?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 25, 2016, 02:10:27 PM
Quote
Pax Vobis said:
  What IS relevant is that these popes hold the papal office, whether we like it or not.  

Roscoe:
 Wrong as there is No way the election of the v2 anti-popes can be construed as legal....
 Gregory XVII is the true( legally elected)  Pope until 1989 and Catholics are bound to recognise him as such.  :fryingpan:


I believe in the possibility of the Siri thesis.  But, we are far past 1989.  We have to deal with "what is".  The reality is that there is a guy sitting in Rome who 99% of the world thinks is the pope.  This is dangerous, of course.  But, whether or not he is actually the pope isn't going to change the danger the Church is in.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 02:15:37 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
Quote
Pax Vobis said:
  What IS relevant is that these popes hold the papal office, whether we like it or not.  

Roscoe:
 Wrong as there is No way the election of the v2 anti-popes can be construed as legal....
 Gregory XVII is the true( legally elected)  Pope until 1989 and Catholics are bound to recognise him as such.  :fryingpan:


I believe in the possibility of the Siri thesis.  But, we are far past 1989.  We have to deal with "what is".  The reality is that there is a guy sitting in Rome who 99% of the world thinks is the pope.  This is dangerous, of course.  But, whether or not he is actually the pope isn't going to change the danger the Church is in.  


Your point is well taken.  Though if he is Pope we can accept the canonized Saints and pray to them and the new Sacrament etc.  If he is not we cannot.

Think of the potential converts lost.  "But your vicar of Christ worships with heretics" and does this and says that.  They will believe the Catholic Church cannot possibly be the Church Christ founded and will never believe in the Papacy because of good-willed Catholics who insist these guys are Popes.    
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 25, 2016, 02:33:45 PM
What do you mean by the 'new sacrament'?

Even if JPII was the pope, his praying with other faiths is a heretical and already condemned act.  If he's not the pope, then he's just some catholic who did the same heretical act.  Either way, it requires an explanation to non-catholics of why this act is wrong.  The # of converts lost is the same.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 25, 2016, 02:39:07 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
What do you mean by the 'new sacrament'?

Even if JPII was the pope, his praying with other faiths is a heretical and already condemned act.  If he's not the pope, then he's just some catholic who did the same heretical act.  Either way, it requires an explanation to non-catholics of why this act is wrong.  The # of converts lost is the same.


The new Sacraments.  People won't convert because they think the Vicar of Christ is a heretic.  "That just can't be the Church"  They will say.  And they are right.  This is why some go Orthodox rather than Novus Ordo because they know that can't be the Church.  That can't be the Rock Christ built His Church upon.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Matto on July 25, 2016, 02:49:57 PM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
People won't convert because they think the Vicar of Christ is a heretic.  "That just can't be the Church"  They will say.  And they are right.  This is why some go Orthodox rather than Novus Ordo because they know that can't be the Church.  That can't be the Rock Christ built His Church upon.

Rod Dreher is a case of this. He is a somewhat conservative writer who converted first to the Novus Ordo and then to Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy is more traditional than the Novus Ordo and seems more likely to be tthe true Church. If I only knew about the Novus Ordo and the Orthodox and had no knowledge of traditional Catholicism I would probably become Orthodox also.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 25, 2016, 03:11:24 PM
If a person won't convert because of the heretical actions of the pope (or the guy pretending to be one), it shows a superficial understanding of catholicism.  The pope is supposed to guard, teach and defend the Faith.  When he doesn't, he is ignored, because the Faith is what's important.  The pope has never been the 'end all, be all' of our Faith, except in modern times.  This pope-centric idealism is an excess like many of the excesses of modernism.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Matto on July 25, 2016, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
If a person won't convert because of the heretical actions of the pope (or the guy pretending to be one), it shows a superficial understanding of catholicism.  The pope is supposed to guard, teach and defend the Faith.  When he doesn't, he is ignored, because the Faith is what's important.  The pope has never been the 'end all, be all' of our Faith, except in modern times.  This pope-centric idealism is an excess like many of the excesses of modernism.  

It's not just the Pope. It is everything the Church does. The holy sacrifice of the Mass has been replaced by a fraudulent service and all the sacraments have been changed. There is nothing at all traditional about the Novus Ordo. Who would want to convert to that?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 25, 2016, 03:25:10 PM
That's my point.  Whether or not the pope is the pope, or some pretender, does not change the fact that the Church is in chaos.  Sedevecantism is irrelevant!
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 26, 2016, 11:03:30 AM
My point is either ignored or not understood.  An example was when JP2 was the reigning apostate vicar of Satan. I was trying to convince someone about the Catholic Faith and he said but your pope teaches that evolution is more than just a theory.  Just one of countless examples that can be brought it as claiming an apostate is the Vicar of Christ undermines the possibility of conversions.  

That is a simple fact.  

You can do with it what you want.  

Preferably you will show me something of substance to the contrary.  I can show you any number of sources for the SV finding as has been done repeatedly here.

Who can show me that a public heretic can be Pope and that Catholics do not have to submit to what a valid Pope binds on the Church?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 26, 2016, 11:24:05 AM
Playing devil's advocate but none of the V2 popes have been formerly declared heretics, per canon law process.  At this point, most of their errors, though public, are not considered 'teachings' of the papacy but errors of their 'personal life'.

Related to this, name one error that is 'binding' on anyone, under pain of sin.  V2 and the new mass are not binding as are none of the other anti-catholic verbiage being spewed from Rome.  It doesn't change the fact that the errors are wrong, but as they are not binding, they are not from the official church, they only appear so.  As Our Lady of LaSalette said:  "The Church will be in eclipse".
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 26, 2016, 11:35:09 AM
Claiming that those who insist SV is right based upon Dogma and Divine Law are wrong because the Church has not officially boUnd it on us (who would bind it?) shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter. It has NOTHING TO DO with binding it on the faithful.

I have no authority to bind you to say that 2+2=4. But then I don't need any authority to do that. It is binding of itself, because it is a necessary truth and must be accepted by anyone who understands what 2 means, what 4 means, what plus means, and what equal means.  So to that a public heretic cannot be Pope and automatically loses his office (if he ever held it in the first place) without the need of declaration.  This must be accepted by all who know what "public heretic" means, what "Pope" means, what "automatically" means, what "without the need of declaration" means.  
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 26, 2016, 12:06:06 PM
Define 'public heretic'.  What i'm saying is that canon law's definition of heretic is different from yours.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: Lover of Truth on July 26, 2016, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
Define 'public heretic'.  What i'm saying is that canon law's definition of heretic is different from yours.


Have I given my definition?  We should be concerned with the Church's definition.  What it canon law's definition?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on July 26, 2016, 01:42:56 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
Define 'public heretic'.  What i'm saying is that canon law's definition of heretic is different from yours.


Extracted from a commentary on Canon Law, I compiled the following:
Quote

        The power of jurisdiction or government which is in the Church by divine institution, is divided into that of the external forum and that of the internal forum, or the forum of conscience; and the latter is either sacramental or extra-sacramental (c. 196).

        In common error or in positive and probable doubt of law or fact, the Church supplies jurisdiction for both the external and internal forum (c. 209).

        As successor of St. Peter, the Roman Pontiff has the primacy not merely of honor but of jurisdiction over the universal Church (c. 218).

        Subject to an essential dependence on the Pope, the council has supreme power over the entire Church; but there is no appeal from the Pope to the council (c. 228).

        The commission of certain very grave crimes has the effect of expelling the culpable religious ipso facto, that is, the religious is dismissed by the law itself. The terms of this canon are to be interpreted strictly, that is, all the conditions laid down must be actually present before such a grave penalty can be said to be incurred. A crime of this type would be A religious who has publicly apostized from the Catholic faith (c. 646, §1, 1°): Apostasy is defined in canon 1325, §2, as the complete abandonment of the Christian faith. The apostasy from the Catholic faith must be public, which means according to canon 2197, 1°, that either the fact is already known by a large number of people, or that the circumstances of the apostasy are such that one must prudently judge that it will easily become known.

        Regarding Holy Orders, an irregularity by delict is one which is incurred by reason of certain specified personal, grievous, external consummated sins committed after baptism, which sins render the person unworthy of the clerical state or of exercising orders already received. The first two of seven such delicts are 1. Apostates from the faith, heretics, and schismatics (c. 985, 1°), and 2. Those who, except in case of extreme necessity, have allowed themselves to be baptized by non-Catholics (meaning here heretics or schismatics, not infidels) in any manner whatsoever (c. 985, 2°)
        Irregularities by delict, however, are not incurred unless the delict is a grave external sin, public or occult, committed after baptism except in the case of c. 985, 2° (c. 986).

        It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258, §1). Passive or merely material presence, for the sake of civil courtesy, duty, or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated, at the funerals, weddings, and other such celebrations of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258, §2).

        Our Lord Jesus Christ entrusted the deposit of faith to the Church, that under the constant guidance and assistance of the Holy Spirit, she might sacredly guard and faithfully explain this divine revelation. The Church has therefore the right and the duty, independently of any civil power, to teach all nations the full evangelical doctrine; and all men are bound by the law of God to learn this doctrine properly and to embrace the true Church of God (c. 1322).
        The Church guards and explains this deposit of faith. She does not add to it, for it was completed and closed with the death of the last Apostle, Saint John. To guard means to keep and defend; in doing this the Church must sometimes declare truths which are not contained in revelation but which are necessary to keep revealed truth. To explain means to make clear what is obscure. The so-called developments of doctrine through dogmatic definitions may be compared to the sharpening of the focus on a film which is projected on a screen. The details which become discernible with clear focus are not new; they were all in the original picture, but they are now brought out more clearly.
        All those truths must be believed fide divina et catholica, which are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and which the Church proposes for acceptance as revealed by God, either by solemn definition or through her ordinary and universal teaching. To pronounce a solemn definition is the part of an Ecumenical Council or of the Roman Pontiff speaking ex cathedra. No doctrine is to be considered as dogmatically defined unless this is evidently proved (c. 1323).
        It is not enough to avoid heresy, but one must also carefully shun all errors which more or less approach it; hence all must observe the constitutions and decrees by which the Holy See has proscribed and forbidden opinions of that sort (c. 1324).
        The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the circumstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion, an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor (c. 1325, §1).
        One who after baptism, while remaining nominally a Christian, pertinaciously (that is, with conscious and intentional resistance to the authority of God and the Church) denies or doubts any one of the truths which must be believed de fide divina et catholica, is a heretic; if he falls away entirely from the Christian faith, he is an apostate; finally if he rejects the authority of the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church who are subject to him, he is a schismatic (c. 1325, §2).
        Catholics are to avoid disputations or conferences about matters of faith with non-Catholics, especially in public, unless the Holy See, or in case of emergency the Ordinary of the place, has given permission (c. 1325, §3).

        The character of a moral act which makes it attributable to a certain person is called imputability. The imputability of a crime depends on the malice (dolus) of the culprit or on his culpability (culpa) in being ignorant of the law or in failing to use due diligence; hence all causes which increase, diminish, or excuse from malice or culpability, automatically increase, diminish, or excuse from the imputability of a crime (c. 2199).
        Malice here means the deliberate will to violate the law; opposed to it on the part of the mind is want of knowledge, on the part of the will, want of freedom (c. 2200, §1). When an external violation of the law has been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proved (c. 2200, §2).

        Persons who conspire to commit a crime and physically concur in it are all held equally guilty, unless circumstances increase or diminish the guilt of some or one of them (c. 2209, §1). In a crime which by its nature requires an accomplice, each party has the same guilt unless the contrary is clear from the circumstances (c. 2209, §2). Not only the one who commands a crime and who is thus the principal culprit, but also those who induce the commission of the crime or concur in it in any way, incur no less guilt, other things being equal, than the one who perpetrated it, if without their help the crime would not have been committed (c. 2209, §3). But if their co-operation only made easier a crime which would have been committed even without their concurrence, it is less guilty (c. 2209, §4). One who by timely retraction completely withdrew his influence toward the commission of the crime is freed from all imputability, even though the perpetrator neverless completed the crime for reasons of his own; if he did not completely withdraw his influence, the retraction diminishes but does not entirely remove culpability (c. 2209, §5). One who concurs in a crime only by neglecting his duty incurs imputability proportionate to the obligation which he had to prevent the crime by doing his duty (c. 2209, §6). Praise of the crime after its commission, sharing in its fruits, concealing and harboring the culprit, or other acts subsequent to the completion of the crime, may constitute new crimes, namely, if they are punished by a penalty in the law; but, unless before the crime there was an agreement with the criminal to perform those acts, they do not entail imputability for the crime (c. 2209, §7).

        Excommunication is a censure by which one is excluded from the communion of the faithful, with the consequences which are enumerated in the following canons, and which cannot be separated (c. 2257, §1). It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical (c. 2257, §2).
        Some excommunicated persons are vitandi, others tolerati (c. 2258, §1). No one is vitandus unless he has been excommunicated by name by the Holy See, and the excommunication has been publicly announced, and it is expressly stated in the decree or sentence that he is to be avoided, without prejudice to canon 2343, §1, 1° (c. 2258, §2). The canon cited declares anyone who lays violent hands on the Supreme Pontiff ipso facto vitandus.

        An excommunicated person is forbidden licitly to consecrate or administer sacraments and sacramentals, except as follows (c. 2261, §1). Except as provided in §3, the faithful can for any just cause ask for sacraments or sacramentals of one who is excommunicated, especially if there is no one else to give them; and in such cases the excommunicated person so asked may administer them, and is not obliged to ask the reason for the request (c. 2261, §2). But from an excommunicated vitandus or one against whom there is a declaratory or condemnatory sentence, the faithful may only in danger of death ask for sacramental absolution according to canons 882, 2252, and also for other sacraments and sacramentals in case there is no one else to administer them (c. 2261, §3).

        An excommunicated person who still holds an office to which ordinary jurisdiction is attached, acts illicitly but validly until a condemnatory or declaratory judgment has been passed upon him; thereafter he acts invalidly (c. 2264).
        A person who is suspended from jurisdiction similarly, acts illicitly but validly before, and invalidly after a condemnatory or declaratory judgment. (c. 2284).

        All apostates from the Christian faith, and all heretics and schismatics: (1) are ipso facto excommunicated; (2) if after due warning they fail to amend, they are to be deprived of any benefice, dignity, pension, office, or other position which they may have in the Church, they are to be declared infamous, and clerics after a reception of the warning are to be deposed; (3) if they have joined a non-Catholic sect or publicly adhered to it, they are ipso facto infamous, and clerics, in addition to being considered to have tacitly renounced any office they may hold, according to canon 188, 4°, are, if previous warning proves fruitless, to be degraded (c. 2314, §1). The abjuration [from crimes] is regarded as legally made when it is made before the Ordinary of the place or his delegate and at least two witnesses (c. 2314, §2).
        One who is suspected of heresy, and who after warning fails to remove the cause of suspicion, shall be barred from legitimate acts, and if he is a cleric he shall moreover, after a repetition of the warning has proved fruitless, be suspended a divinis; if one who is suspected of heresy does not amend his life within six full months from the time when the penalty was incurred, he shall be considered a heretic and be subject to the penalties for heresy (c. 2315).
        One who spontaneously and with full knowledge helps in any way in the propagation of heresy, or who co-operates in divinis with heretics contrary to the provision of canon 1258, is suspected of heresy (c. 2316).
        Those who obstinately teach or defend, either publicly or privately, a doctrine which has been condemned, though not as formally heretical, by the Holy See or by a General Council, are to be excluded from the ministry of preaching the word of God or of hearing sacramental confessions, and from teaching in any capacity, in addition to any other penalties which the condemnatory sentence may inflict or which the Ordinary, after due warning, may deem necessary to repair the scandal (c. 2317).

        Those who join a Masonic sect or other societies of the same sort, which plot against the Church or legitimate civil authority, incur ipso facto an excommunication simply reserved to the Holy See (c. 2335).
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 26, 2016, 01:51:55 PM
Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: An even Seven
Antipope Benedict XIII was recognized by St. Vincent Ferrer as the Pope for a while during the Great Western Schism.
Even a great Saint does not know everything of what is going on at any given point.

Quote
Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Vincent Ferrer: "Vincent was one of the most resolute and faithful adherents of Benedict XIII, and by his word, sanctity, and miracles he did much to strengthen Benedict's position. It was not until 1416, when pressed by Ferdinand, King of Aragon, that he abandoned him. On 6 January, preaching at Perpignan, he declared anew to the vast throng gathered around his pulpit that Benedict XIII was the legitimate pope, but that, since he would not resign to bring peace to the Church, Ferdinand had withdrawn his states from the obedience of Avignon. This act must have caused Vincent much sorrow, for he was deeply attached to Benedict."


Not that it's ever been suggested but only in my opinion, I would not be surprised if this letter was forged or at least not actually written by Padre Pio.


Benedict XIII( as well as the rest of Fr popes during GWS) are Not anti-popes....  :fryingpan:


 
Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia on Pedro de Luna
Antipope under the name of Benedict XIII, b. at Illueca, Aragon, 1328; d. at the Peñiscola, near Valencia, Spain, either 29 Nov., 1422, or 23 May, 1423. He was elected 28 Sept., 1394, deposed at the Council of Constance 26 July, 1417.  


Sorry but the above source is incorrect. Pls consult Atwaters Catholic Dictionary & von Pastors History Of Popes From Close Of Middle Ages.

 :cheers:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: snowball on July 26, 2016, 02:09:12 PM
Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
as not there.
What we see today is just a waxed figure.


Are you thinking of the wax seals  (http://www.italymagazine.com/italy/religion/padre-pio-tomb-desecrated)?

But the Capuchin friars dismissed the claims as ''fanciful'', explaining that in the days prior to the saint's burial in 1968 the wax seals had been removed from the coffin a number of times for checks on the body.

They said that after the zinc edges of the coffin were finally soldered shut, the six definitive wax seals were placed over the metal rather than the glass of the casket.
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 26, 2016, 07:14:19 PM
Atwater's Catholic Dictionary says that the Fr popes of GWS are not considered anti-popes because of the uncertainty of their status. IOW GWS did not involve heresy or homosexuals. Pedro De Luna recanted his heresy before the Council adjourned.

Von Pastor explains that a compromise was reached to settle the Council. It was decided that Catholics are free to recognise either the Fr or It popes of GWS. This was because GWS was only political in nature. There was no danger of a Catholic falling into heresy by following either faction.

Sorry but your attempt( which has been tried here at least a few times) to claim that St Vincent Ferrer recognised an anti-pope is a failure.  :detective:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 26, 2016, 07:41:08 PM
Possibly I am confusing Benedict XIII with John XXIII( who resigned).  :detective:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 26, 2016, 11:15:42 PM
Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: roscoe
Atwater's Catholic Dictionary says that the Fr popes of GWS are not considered anti-popes because of the uncertainty of their status. IOW GWS did not involve heresy or homosexuals. Pedro De Luna recanted his heresy before the Council adjourned.

Von Pastor explains that a compromise was reached to settle the Council. It was decided that Catholics are free to recognise either the Fr or It popes of GWS. This was because GWS was only political in nature. There was no danger of a Catholic falling into heresy by following either faction.

Sorry but your attempt( which has been tried here at least a few times) to claim that St Vincent Ferrer recognised an anti-pope is a failure.  :detective:

What you are saying does not make sense; that people are free to obstinately follow people that were not validly elected as pope.


You are missing the point. In the end it could not be determined which line of popes was in fact legally elected.

Since neither side was involved in heresy or homosexuals a compromise was reached. Catholics are free to call either the FR or It line of GWS Popes as true.

This is why Atwells Catholic dictionary says that Fr line of GWS popes are not anti-popes.  :detective:
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: OHCA on July 26, 2016, 11:50:42 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
Playing devil's advocate but none of the V2 popes have been formerly declared heretics, per canon law process.  At this point, most of their errors, though public, are not considered 'teachings' of the papacy but errors of their 'personal life'.

Related to this, name one error that is 'binding' on anyone, under pain of sin.  V2 and the new mass are not binding as are none of the other anti-catholic verbiage being spewed from Rome.  It doesn't change the fact that the errors are wrong, but as they are not binding, they are not from the official church, they only appear so.  As Our Lady of LaSalette said:  "The Church will be in eclipse".


Is the new "mass" binding or not under pain of sin?  Aren't we required to attend Mass under pain of sin?  The new "mass" is the only show in town within a couple of hundred miles for many people.  So those folks who stay home because they can't drive 200 miles every Sunday and Holy Day, aren't they sinning by missing Mass if the new "mass" was promulgated by a valid Pope?
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: OHCA on July 26, 2016, 11:58:37 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis
If a person won't convert because of the heretical actions of the pope (or the guy pretending to be one), it shows a superficial understanding of catholicism.  The pope is supposed to guard, teach and defend the Faith.  When he doesn't, he is ignored, because the Faith is what's important.  The pope has never been the 'end all, be all' of our Faith, except in modern times.  This pope-centric idealism is an excess like many of the excesses of modernism.  


Right--a true Pope is nothing more than the Vicar of Christ.  How dare folks have such lofty ideals and not be content just telling the Pope "go stick it" when he's wrong.
#SARCASM

BTW--the term "pope-centric" has very protestantesque ring to it.

And wouldn't it seem that it is the R&Rers who view the Pope as the "'end all, be all' of our Faith?"
Title: Padre Pio accepted Paul VI as a valid pope.
Post by: roscoe on July 27, 2016, 11:12:33 AM
 :confused1: