Author Topic: Origins of the rejection of BODBOB (Read 2639 times)

Exurge · « **on:** April 11, 2014, 04:40:00 PM »

Would it be accurate to say that the one responsible for the present rejection of BOD/BOB is Father Feeney? And that then it was propagated by the likes of Fr. Wathen?

The Dimonds certainly seem to have picked it up from Wathen.

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** April 11, 2014, 04:57:13 PM »

The question should be: How the heck can anyone believe there is salvation without the sacrament after Trent infallibly decreed that the sacrament of baptism is a necessity unto salvation?

After Trent, the only way anyone can deny the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation and preach that a good intention suffices, is due to their own bad will.

It used to be known that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but BODers now preach that it is the road to heaven which is paved with good intentions - same thing the Novus Ordo has been preaching all along.

Exurge · « **Reply #2 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:05:13 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

The question should be: How the heck can anyone believe there is salvation without the sacrament after Trent infallibly decreed that the sacrament of baptism is a necessity unto salvation?

After Trent, the only way anyone can deny the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation and preach that a good intention suffices, is due to their own bad will.

It used to be known that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but BODers now preach that it is the road to heaven which is paved with good intentions - same thing the Novus Ordo has been preaching all along.

Nope: the question is, where did this all come from?

Like all heresies and errors, it had to start somewhere.

Anything you say against someone who believes in BOD/BOB, you say it against the Saints and Doctors and Popes who allowed all this, because obviously, anyone who believes in bod/bob is just following and citing what the Church's authorities taught.

Your ramblings are mere brutalities. I used to be the same, but thank God i saw the light before it was too late.

Like i asked you in the other thread: why do you reject bod/bob?

Dont tell me you "read it by yourself": like i said i bet you picked it up from Wathen.

Let's see you not answer the question.

Stubborn · « **Reply #3 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:16:57 PM »

BOD rejects the necessity of the sacraments - that is why I could no more defend the anti-Sacrament a BOD, than you can defend the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation. It is against your belief, your lex credendi, as a BOD goes against mine - the difference is, I side with the infallible Church teaching, you side with modernists and the Novus Ordo.

Always try hard to remember, when you side *with* the sacraments, you side with God - when you reject the necessity of the sacraments, you reject God.

BTW, do you honestly think God is going to send YOU a priest in your last hour, after you've gone out of your way to consistently mock, trivialize and belittle the necessity of His holy sacraments?

Also, always remember, it is the road to hell, not heaven, that is paved with good intentions.

Exurge · « **Reply #4 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:34:09 PM »

You are utterly incapable of answering one simple question and you speak about honesty, good will, salvation etc.

Quote from: Stubborn

you side with modernists and the Novus Ordo.

St. Alphonsus was a Modernist heretic then.

Once gain: why do you reject bod/bob?

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:41:41 PM »

Exurge , Do you believe all defined dogmas of The Church as defined by The Church without innovations attached to these dogmas?

Exurge · « **Reply #6 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:48:43 PM »

Quote from: Truth is Eternal

Exurge , Do you believe all defined dogmas of The Church as defined by The Church without innovations attached to these dogmas?

That is a nonsensical and Protestant question.

Just like i find it insulting to argue about passages from the Bible with a Protestant, because he rejects the authority of the Church and the fact that if it weren't for the Church there wouldn't even be a Bible to begin with, so you people who ask "do you believe in the infallible dogmas or not?" are just as Protestant as any Bible-thumper out there.

Cantarella · « **Reply #7 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:50:40 PM »

:jumping2:

The reason to reject BOD is related to the concept of invincible ignorance and salvation for those outside of the visible Church. BOD is simply the loophole the liberals use to allow the possibility of salvation for non- Catholics, irremediably causing indifferentism, which has been already condemned within the heresy of Modernism (Pius IX, syllabus of modern errors, 1864).

See, BOD adherents seek to prove that the sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation and therefore, that there is salvation outside the church. They concede that sure, it is "better" to a visible member of the Church, but you can also be an invisible member and be saved. That is to say that Baptism is optional which is infallibly condemned. Because of this, the clever modernists twisted the concept of BOD, (originally speculated to catechumens only) so as not to remove completely the necessity of Baptism from the picture, but simply making it subjective, ambiguous, and ultimately invisible.

It is pretty obvious that revealed infallible dogmas are applicable for all time, not subjective to interpretation which contradict the obvious: that unless a man is a visible member of the visible Church on earth, subject in spiritual matters to the pope visible reigning, he is not in the path of salvation.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:01:57 PM »

I don't think that Fr, Feeney is sole responsible for the rejection of BOD. He just pointed pout that the theological speculation of BOD was the basis for the modernist denial of EENS.

From what I understood, the teaching on BOD has evolved like this historically, in an outline:

- St Ambrose speech on Valentinian, (misinterpretation, and following note of rectification that John 3:5 is to be taken literally).

- St Augustine quote about BOD, then rectification made for donatists.

- Overwhelming consensus of the Church fathers on necessity of the Church and water baptism.

- Theology of the new world 1492. Some BOD opinion -> Peace of Westphalia 1648 - catholic monarchs water down Faith for protestant nations for co-existing.

- Reformation - From political acceptance, personal acceptance followed. Assault of sacramentality as only vehicle of sanctifying grace.

- Pope Piux IX 1848, misunderstanding on Invincible ignorance in allocution.

- Insertion by Cardinal Gibbons on questions of Baptism in the Catechism of Baltimore 1884 - Americanism - speculation on BOD erected into "Church teaching". Generations were raised thinking on this fallible Baltimore catechism as dogma.

BOD/B has never been defined as Catholic dogma and it has only stayed in the realm of theological speculation, furthermore, this is so for catechumens and martyrs ONLY.

Why Cardinal Gibbons inserted these Baptism questions on the fallible Baltimore Catechism, which has been the catechism almost every Catholic in the world has learned from since XX century? Baltimore Catechism contains serious modernist errors.

Perhaps this has to do with Americanism?, another condemned heresy. In order for the Catholic Church to establish Herself in free America, those in charge saw the need of watering down the Faith as to peaceful coexist with people from other religions. The salutary dogma of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" was definitely not well seen in "free" Judaic America.

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:11:19 PM »

Exurge, you cannot understand because you are dishonest even to your own self.

The sacraments are pearls of great price - but only to me and the other defenders of the sacraments, not to you and other NSAAers. You publicly treat them as though they were instituted to be trampled under foot into the earth.

Because of your bad will, you cannot possibly grasp the fact that love of the sacraments are directly tied to the love of God, because it was God, who in His infinite love for us, instituted so great a help for our hope of salvation. God gave us a very necessary and a very great gift, but you say: "meh, who needs 'em".

You cannot possibly despise the sacraments as you do, and also love the One who instituted them, so you could not possibly understand why those of us who love the sacraments reject a BOD.

Again, always consider that you will reap what you've sown. You preach the sacraments are not a necessity, you should plan to die without the last sacrament.

You still have time to reject your despising of the sacraments and accept and profess the Church's teaching that they are a necessity unto salvation. Until you do, plan that God's justice will leave you without a priest in your last hour of need.

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #10 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:18:01 PM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote from: Truth is Eternal
Exurge , Do you believe all defined dogmas of The Church as defined by The Church without innovations attached to these dogmas?

That is a nonsensical and Protestant question.

Just like i find it insulting to argue about passages from the Bible with a Protestant, because he rejects the authority of the Church and the fact that if it weren't for the Church there wouldn't even be a Bible to begin with, so you people who ask "do you believe in the infallible dogmas or not?" are just as Protestant as any Bible-thumper out there.

Your equating of infallible Catholic Church dogmas with Protestantism show your hatred for The Church which is ultimately a deep hatred of God.

Exurge , Do you believe all defined dogmas of The Church as defined by The Church without innovations attached to these dogmas?

No you don't

Exurge · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:38:56 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Exurge, you cannot understand because you are dishonest even to your own self.

The sacraments are pearls of great price - but only to me and the other defenders of the sacraments, not to you and other NSAAers. You publicly treat them as though they were instituted to be trampled under foot into the earth.

Because of your bad will, you cannot possibly grasp the fact that love of the sacraments are directly tied to the love of God, because it was God, who in His infinite love for us, instituted so great a help for our hope of salvation. God gave us a very necessary and a very great gift, but you say: "meh, who needs 'em".

You cannot possibly despise the sacraments as you do, and also love the One who instituted them, so you could not possibly understand why those of us who love the sacraments reject a BOD.

Again, always consider that you will reap what you've sown. You preach the sacraments are not a necessity, you should plan to die without the last sacrament.

You still have time to reject your despising of the sacraments and accept and profess the Church's teaching that they are a necessity unto salvation. Until you do, plan that God's justice will leave you without a priest in your last hour of need.

I'd like to think you're just ignorant but youre not -you're 100% bad willed and dishonest to the core.

I have NEVER said that i despise, belittle, or reject the Sacraments, but of course bad willed liars like you ASSUME that i do for some reason.

If you had any shred of honesty you wouldn't say that i despise or belittle the Sacraments because you KNOW that BOD/BOB apply only in extreme cases.

I suppose you think all the 7 Doctors of the Church and the other Saints who taught BOD/BOB and all the Popes who allowed this right under their noses all despised, belittled and trampled over the Sacraments?

The one who will reap what he has sown is YOU, for make no mistake you are definitely on the road to Hell right now. You will get your portion in the pool of fire and brimstone if you die in your stubbornness.

You are such a dishonest son of the Devil that you can't even answer one simple question.

I am still waiting for you to answer.

Exurge · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2014, 07:03:22 PM »

Quote from: Truth is Eternal

Your equating of infallible Catholic Church dogmas with Protestantism show your hatred for The Church which is ultimately a deep hatred of God.

Gee whiz. You are the one who doesn't even believe in the Church.

I accept all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church -you don't.

Unlike you, i don't interpret the dogmas privately like a Protestant and i don't put the Church against Itself and make Her look ridiculous -like you do.

Let's see here. Are you a sede?

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** April 12, 2014, 03:51:35 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote from: Stubborn
Exurge, you cannot understand because you are dishonest even to your own self.

The sacraments are pearls of great price - but only to me and the other defenders of the sacraments, not to you and other NSAAers. You publicly treat them as though they were instituted to be trampled under foot into the earth.

Because of your bad will, you cannot possibly grasp the fact that love of the sacraments are directly tied to the love of God, because it was God, who in His infinite love for us, instituted so great a help for our hope of salvation. God gave us a very necessary and a very great gift, but you say: "meh, who needs 'em".

You cannot possibly despise the sacraments as you do, and also love the One who instituted them, so you could not possibly understand why those of us who love the sacraments reject a BOD.

Again, always consider that you will reap what you've sown. You preach the sacraments are not a necessity, you should plan to die without the last sacrament.

You still have time to reject your despising of the sacraments and accept and profess the Church's teaching that they are a necessity unto salvation. Until you do, plan that God's justice will leave you without a priest in your last hour of need.

I'd like to think you're just ignorant but youre not -you're 100% bad willed and dishonest to the core.

I have NEVER said that i despise, belittle, or reject the Sacraments, but of course bad willed liars like you ASSUME that i do for some reason.

You do not believe the sacraments are a necessity, as such, the Church teaches that we must suppose that you despise the sacraments.

Quote from: Trent's Cathechism

For he who makes no use of what is really useful and necessary must be supposed to despise it; particularly since, in communicating to the Church the power of forgiving sin, the Lord did so with the view that all should have recourse to this healing remedy.

Quote from: Exurge

If you had any shred of honesty you wouldn't say that i despise or belittle the Sacraments because you KNOW that BOD/BOB apply only in extreme cases.

I suppose you think all the 7 Doctors of the Church and the other Saints who taught BOD/BOB and all the Popes who allowed this right under their noses all despised, belittled and trampled over the Sacraments?

They did not make it dogma as you do - and as I said about St. Thomas, he admitted that he would submit to the judgement of the Church if he was wrong (see LoT's signature), we can be sure that he would not obstinately continue in his error after the Church infallibly settled the matter for all time. That we can be sure of.

Quote from: Exurge

The one who will reap what he has sown is YOU, for make no mistake you are definitely on the road to Hell right now. You will get your portion in the pool of fire and brimstone if you die in your stubbornness.

You are such a dishonest son of the Devil that you can't even answer one simple question.

I am still waiting for you to answer.

You reap what you sow - - - you sow NSAA, you will reap NSAA. Wait and see if Our Lord isn't telling the truth. Oh, and again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, not the road to heaven. BOD = a good intention.

I answered your question above but as I said, it is not within you to understand the answer because you do not understand what the love of the sacraments mean because YOU despise them. Because you despise them, it is impossible for you to love them - "For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other." In your case, you love the anti-sacrament therefore you despise the sacraments, as scripture and the catechism teaches.

Now answer my question - do you expect to die with the graces of last sacrament? - that which you've publicly trumpet and repeatedly exclaim is unnecessary?

Nishant · « **Reply #14 on:** April 12, 2014, 05:42:54 AM »

Quote from: Catechism of the Council of Trent, approved by two Popes directly

"...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism, approved by three Popes

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?

A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Quote from: Catechism of St. Pius X

17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

As I've said before, you folks need to stop this silly playing around, go back to your Catechisms, learn your faith, and avoid imperiling your souls.

This is very serious, you're all going to end up schismatics, without supernatural charity, separated from the bosom of the Church, if you continue like this.

Trent teaches that the sacrament of baptism, like the sacrament of penance, is necessary in fact or in desire.

This is how Pope St. Pius X defends the necessity of the sacraments. Anyone who accuses him of modernism becomes a schismatic immediately. This is how Canon Law defends the necessity of the sacraments, a necessity in fact or in desire. Anyone who argues this contains heresy incurs ipso facto penalties, including excommunication. To wit, "Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation" (Can. 737)