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Author Topic: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?  (Read 2621 times)

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Offline saintbosco13

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Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
« on: May 08, 2017, 07:11:10 PM »
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  • I noticed on this site and a few others there seems to be a great fear of "dogmatic sedevacantism" as if it were the most dangerous of heresies. Yet I cannot find a single reference in any Catholic books about any dangers where someone was accused of being "dogmatic" on any subject (under that term or any similar term).
     
    Can anyone provide any pre-Vatican II examples where the Catholic Church warns the faithful of such a danger? From what I can tell, this "dogmatic" accusation appears to be a novelty.
     
    Thanks

     


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 07:52:01 AM »
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  • Dogmatic refers to the extreme brand of sedevacantism where the sedevacantist considers all non-sedevacantists to be not Catholic for that reason alone ... i.e. that sedevacantism is a dogma and those who deny it heretics.

    Most extreme example is the Dimond Brothers.  They consider anyone who believes that the V2 popes are legitimate to be heretics for that reason alone.

    Bishop Sanborn wrote an article condemning "opinionism", rejecting the notion that SVism is a mere opinion and implicitly stating that SVism is dogmatic truth.  He would fall just a hair short of declaring all non-SVs to be heretics.

    Dogmatic SVs, for instance, refuse "communion with" anyone who does not refuse "communion with" the V2 popes ... i.e., suggesting that by being in communion with someone who's in communion with the V2 "popes", they themselves would be in communion with the V2 popes (that this is a transitive relationship).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 07:57:09 AM »
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  • One historical example is the mutual accusations of heresy that blew back and forth between the Thomists and the Molinists.  At one point the Church stepped in and forbade either side from declaring their opposition to be in heresy.

    So, for instance, if I were to claim that it's heresy to state that the earth revolves around the sun, I would be a "dogmatic" geocentrist.  That would be in opposition to someone who merely holds the geocentrist position but does not declare those who disagree with him to be heretics.

    There's a danger of schism when being a dogmatic anything.  If I take something that is a Catholic truth, but which is taught with a theological note of less than de fide, and declare those who reject it to be heretics, then I become a "dogmatic" proponent of that position.  Danger is that those who deny it are NOT in fact heretics because the truth they deny isn't, strictly speaking, dogma or de fide.  Consequently, by rejecting communion with those who hold that position, I am separating myself from other members of the Catholic Church ... which is schismatic.

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
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  • The late Michael Davies would not debate with sedevacantists because he considered them to be outside the Catholic Church and therefore non-Catholics. What dogmatic so and so was he? Even though this is off topic, some viewers may not as yet have read "Michael Davies - an Evaluation" by John Daly. Near 600 pages long but worth looking at.

    http://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/michael-davies-evaluation.pdf

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 09:43:37 AM »
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  • The late Michael Davies would not debate with sedevacantists because he considered them to be outside the Catholic Church and therefore non-Catholics. What dogmatic so and so was he? 
    I was not aware of this.  While "dogmatic sedevacantism" is feared and condemned in many places, "dogmatic sedeplenism" or "dogmatic anti-sedevacantism" is generally accepted and often embraced in those same places.
    Both are schismatic.  Both, therefore, put one outside the Church.
    Ladislaus gave a very clear definition above.  Of course, the "dogmatic sedeplenism" is exactly the same.  There are many "dogmatic sedeplenist" who routinely and frequently post here on CathInfo, so some schism is clearly considered more schismatic than other schism.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 09:52:54 AM »
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  • I had a friendly debate with a dogmatic sede once and they kept harping on the novelties of V2 and the 'trad hypocrites' who are 'una cuм' with the pope but reject V2.  They argued that sedevacantism is held by a 'consensus' of theologians throughout history.  I asked them, "Where the consensus for the 'una cuм' theory?"  They couldn't answer.  I asked them, "Is there one theologian, ever, (besides the untrained and self-proclaimed Fr Cekada) who argued that the "una cuм" prayer made one an accomplice to the pope/clergy's errors?"  They couldn't answer.  My conclusion is that the "una cuм" argument is as much a novelty as is V2 and it is a tool of the devil to further divide the Faith and traditionalism.  

    I have no problem with someone exploring the theological possibilities of sedevacantism.  Certainly our times ask for such thinking.  But when these people start 'anathematizing' others, it's proof that their zeal has gone to the extreme and is not catholic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 10:14:27 AM »
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  • The late Michael Davies would not debate with sedevacantists because he considered them to be outside the Catholic Church and therefore non-Catholics. What dogmatic so and so was he?

    Yes, that would a case of his being a dogmatic sedeplenist.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 10:19:01 AM »
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  • There are many "dogmatic sedeplenist" who routinely and frequently post here on CathInfo, so some schism is clearly considered more schismatic than other schism.

    Yeah, it's because 1) there are more dogmatic sedeplenists than there are dogmatic sedevacantists ... and 2) it's also an emotional/perception thing because in NORMAL CIRcuмSTANCES when there's a pope accepted by the Universal Church the legitimacy of that pope IS in fact considered to be a dogmatic fact by most theologians.  Thus people think it's more OK to be a dogmatic sedeplenist than a dogmatic sedevacantist.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 10:20:08 AM »
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  • I had a friendly debate with a dogmatic sede once and they kept harping on the novelties of V2 and the 'trad hypocrites' who are 'una cuм' with the pope but reject V2.  They argued that sedevacantism is held by a 'consensus' of theologians throughout history.  I asked them, "Where the consensus for the 'una cuм' theory?"  They couldn't answer.  I asked them, "Is there one theologian, ever, (besides the untrained and self-proclaimed Fr Cekada) who argued that the "una cuм" prayer made one an accomplice to the pope/clergy's errors?"  They couldn't answer.  My conclusion is that the "una cuм" argument is as much a novelty as is V2 and it is a tool of the devil to further divide the Faith and traditionalism.  

    I have no problem with someone exploring the theological possibilities of sedevacantism.  Certainly our times ask for such thinking.  But when these people start 'anathematizing' others, it's proof that their zeal has gone to the extreme and is not catholic.

    What's ironic is that even the Dimonds (about the most dogmatic SVs you can find) REJECT "una cuмism" as invalid.

    Offline Catholictrue

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 10:35:22 AM »
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  • Dogmatic refers to the extreme brand of sedevacantism where the sedevacantist considers all non-sedevacantists to be not Catholic for that reason alone ... i.e. that sedevacantism is a dogma and those who deny it heretics.

    Most extreme example is the Dimond Brothers.  They consider anyone who believes that the V2 popes are legitimate to be heretics for that reason alone.

    Bishop Sanborn wrote an article condemning "opinionism", rejecting the notion that SVism is a mere opinion and implicitly stating that SVism is dogmatic truth.  He would fall just a hair short of declaring all non-SVs to be heretics.

    Dogmatic SVs, for instance, refuse "communion with" anyone who does not refuse "communion with" the V2 popes ... i.e., suggesting that by being in communion with someone who's in communion with the V2 "popes", they themselves would be in communion with the V2 popes (that this is a transitive relationship).
    This is quite misleading and inaccurate, like so many things Ladislaus says.  The Dimonds and MHFM do not hold that everyone who believes the Vatican II antipopes are legitimate is, by that fact alone, a heretic.  Rather, they hold that those who obstinately accept the Vatican II antipopes (i.e. in the face of the evidence) are heretics.  That evidence would include the notorious heresies of the antipopes, the Catholic Church's teaching that heretics are outside the Church, the Church’s teaching that heretics cannot hold office in the Church, the Church's teaching that a Catholic must not profess communion with heretics, etc.  Given the availability of information today, how notorious the antipopes’ heresies are (such as Antipope Francis openly agreeing with Martin Luther on Justification, to name just one), and how clear the Church's teaching is on such individuals, people fall into heresy or schism when they obstinately reject the sedevacantist position.  This makes perfect sense, of course; for to obstinately hold that Antipope Francis is the pope is to take the position that he professes the true faith, since only those who profess the true faith can be considered to be members of the Catholic Church.  But a Catholic is not permitted to hold that a man who agrees with Martin Luther on Justification, who constantly preaches notorious heresies, and who teaches a blatantly false gospel (e.g. that one may commit adultery and receive 'Communion'), professes the true faith.  To say that such a man professes the true faith conflates a false religion with the true faith.  

    That’s why it’s a rejection of Christ and the faith to obstinately hold Francis to be the pope, as these videos show.  The same applies the other Vatican II antipopes.

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    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zg7M_FwLF7E[/youtube]
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    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/a3AnX_GBWJw[/youtube]
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    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/A8VGiB9xakQ[/youtube]

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    Offline Catholictrue

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 10:45:19 AM »
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  • Here are the videos I referenced in the previous post:

     
     


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
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  • This is quite misleading and inaccurate, like so many things Ladislaus says.  The Dimonds and MHFM do not hold that everyone who believes the Vatican II antipopes are legitimate is, by that fact alone, a heretic.  Rather, they hold that those who obstinately accept the Vatican II antipopes (i.e. in the face of the evidence) are heretics.

    Of course the "obstinacy" marker is in play for any heresy in terms of distinguishing formal from material heresy.  But the fact remains that they consider it OBJECTIVELY heretical to regard the V2 Popes as legitimate.  So, no, what I said was neither misleading nor inaccurate.  One might, for instance, reject the Immaculate Conception.  That's heretical.  But it could be that someone is ignorant and not obstinate, etc.  Ironically, in other situations, the Dimonds very much understate the value of "obstinacy" and disparage the formal vs. material heresy distinctions.

    And, even MORE ironically, it's precisely due to the "obstinacy" test that many sedeplenists hold that the V2 Popes could be objective heretics while remaining Catholics.

    Offline Catholictrue

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 11:25:45 AM »
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  • Of course the "obstinacy" marker is in play for any heresy in terms of distinguishing formal from material heresy.  But the fact remains that they consider it OBJECTIVELY heretical to regard the V2 Popes as legitimate.  So, no, what I said was neither misleading nor inaccurate.
    Actually, yes, what you wrote was quite misleading and actually flat out false.  It was a misrepresentation.  That is proven by your response here, which represents a retreat from (and a modification of) your previous false statement.  As anyone can see, your previous post declared that the Dimonds believe that all such people are "heretics".  
     
    YOU STATED: >>>Most extreme example is the Dimond Brothers.  They consider anyone who believes that the V2 popes are legitimate to be heretics for that reason alone.>>>
     
    That’s what you wrote, and it is false.  You didn’t say that they believe all such people are in “material heresy”.  No, you said that they believe all such people are “heretics”.  However, after you were called out for your false statement, now you are dishonestly pretending like you only meant that they believe all such people hold a heretical position but are not necessarily guilty.  Of course that is not at all what your first statement meant and you know it.
     
    Deep down you are convicted by your own failure to take the sedevacantist position.  That’s why I believe it makes you feel better to lie about and misrepresent the position of true Catholics who take the sedevacantist position, such as those at MHFM.  You want to make the position seem unreasonable or uncharitable to justify your rejection of it.  But it’s not unreasonable or uncharitable.  It’s the true position.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 11:52:53 AM »
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  • I've seen a few opinions posted so far, but I'm looking for something from the Church - something from a General Council, encyclical, catechism or book with imprimatur possibly? Where does the Church warn the faithful being "dogmatic" or something similar?

     

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Origins of "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
    « Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 12:05:27 PM »
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  • The Church used different terminology.  Essentially, saying someone is a "dogmatic something" is a neologism.  You might say that someone who is divorced and remarried but thinks this is completely compatible with Catholic doctrine is a "dogmatic adulterer".  Someone who believes that Lutheranism is the true faith is a "dogmatic Lutheran".  

    You only find a variety of opinions because there is no standard definition that one could look up in a Catholic Encyclopedia or even Webster's Dictionary. The term, on any given forum, means whatever the particular forum owner says it means.  My understanding is that Ladislaus gave an accurate definition for CathInfo.  If you go to another forum, it may have a slightly different meaning.  If you wish to use it in casual conversation at home, you'll have to assign it precise meaning.  Until a precise meaning becomes more generally accepted, this is the status of the term.  

    In any event, don't look to the Church for a definition because the Church never gave one.