Author Topic: Original Sin (Read 11956 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #30 on:** June 19, 2013, 03:47:48 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Yet you dismiss St Alphonsus when he gives the theological note of de fide to BOD/BOB.

The St. Alphonsus quote that I posted *is* echoing the de fide teachings of the Church. You cannot argue that. All you do is ignore it like he never said it and the same with St. Thomas' quote - you simply ignore them both as though they never said anything at all.

Now you are claiming that St. Alphonsus makes infallible "theological notes"? IMO, that is the biggest exception that you have made to date - you're going the wrong way, you're supposed to accept the truth, not makeup the faith as you go along.

Didn't you read where I quoted Trent's catechism stating the sacrament was necessary for all - which echoes defined dogma?

Again, unless exceptions to the dogma are made, the common theory of BOD does not exist.
You make exceptions to the dogma all the time but why is it that you deny you are making these exceptions?

Stubborn · « **Reply #31 on:** June 19, 2013, 03:59:12 AM »

Quote from: SJB

From The Church Teaches:

Below is the catechism which came directly from the Council of Trent to explain the meaning of the words: "or the desire thereof". Note the *very first* thing it teaches which I made blue bold.
I've posted this link for you many times, why do you reject it's teaching in this matter?

Dispositions for Baptism

Intention

The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Besides a wish to be baptised, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary. Our Lord and Saviour has said: He that believes and is baptised shall be saved.

SJB · « **Reply #32 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:05:05 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Yet you dismiss St Alphonsus when he gives the theological note of de fide to BOD/BOB.

The St. Alphonsus quote that I posted *is* echoing the de fide teachings of the Church. You cannot argue that. All you do is ignore it like he never said it and the same with St. Thomas' quote - you simply ignore them both as though they never said anything at all.

Now you are claiming that St. Alphonsus makes infallible "theological notes"? IMO, that is the biggest exception that you have made to date - you're going the wrong way, you're supposed to accept the truth, not makeup the faith as you go along.

Didn't you read where I quoted Trent's catechism stating the sacrament was necessary for all - which echoes defined dogma?

Again, unless exceptions to the dogma are made, the common theory of BOD does not exist.
You make exceptions to the dogma all the time but why is it that you deny you are making these exceptions?

St. Alphonsus was made a Doctor of the Church. The Church did not remove this teaching of his nor can you produce anybody who ever noticed this rather glaring "error." That's because IT'S NOT AN ERROR!

The truth is that you are the one making exceptions, as in that you exclude anything that doesn't agree with your understanding of the "clear words" of a dogma.

SJB · « **Reply #33 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:18:45 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
From The Church Teaches:

Below is the catechism which came directly from the Council of Trent to explain the meaning of the words: "or the desire thereof". Note the *very first* thing it teaches which I made blue bold.
I've posted this link for you many times, why do you reject it's teaching in this matter?

Dispositions for Baptism

Intention

The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Besides a wish to be baptised, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary. Our Lord and Saviour has said: He that believes and is baptised shall be saved.

I understand it's teaching in the manner that all theologians understand it. Yours is the lonely position, the one with nothing supporting it and opposed to all of the authorized teachers in the Church.

St. Alphonsus teaches thus, "now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Then St. Robert Bellarmine: "... I answer therefore that, when it is said outside the Church no one is saved, it must be understood of those who belong to her neither in actual fact nor in desire [desiderio], as theologians commonly speak on baptism."

Stubborn · « **Reply #34 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:20:55 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Yet you dismiss St Alphonsus when he gives the theological note of de fide to BOD/BOB.

The St. Alphonsus quote that I posted *is* echoing the de fide teachings of the Church. You cannot argue that. All you do is ignore it like he never said it and the same with St. Thomas' quote - you simply ignore them both as though they never said anything at all.

Now you are claiming that St. Alphonsus makes infallible "theological notes"? IMO, that is the biggest exception that you have made to date - you're going the wrong way, you're supposed to accept the truth, not makeup the faith as you go along.

Didn't you read where I quoted Trent's catechism stating the sacrament was necessary for all - which echoes defined dogma?

Again, unless exceptions to the dogma are made, the common theory of BOD does not exist.
You make exceptions to the dogma all the time but why is it that you deny you are making these exceptions?

St. Alphonsus was made a Doctor of the Church. The Church did not remove this teaching of his nor can you produce anybody who ever noticed this rather glaring "error." That's because IT'S NOT AN ERROR!

The truth is that you are the one making exceptions, as in that you exclude anything that doesn't agree with your understanding of the "clear words" of a dogma.

You are talking yourself into a hole again SJB. Again, at least you are no longer claiming the catechism teaches BOD like you were - so that is a step in the right direction.

You said NOBODY explains it like me - but I showed you St. Alphonsus (and St. Thomas) explains it like me - why do you deny this?

I showed you the catechism directly from Trent which is explaining it just like me - (Truth is, I explain it like the catechism) why do you deny this?

Why (obviously falsely) accuse me of making exceptions when I literally quote that which has literally been explicitly defined?

St. Alphonsus: "It should be known that baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary of all the Sacraments. Without baptism, no one can enter heaven."

I'm sorry St. Alphonsus is (obviously) inconsistent in his teaching but he is still a great saint - and humans are often inconsistent - which is why the dogma was defined the way it was, said what it said and whose meaning will remain unchanged forever.

SJB · « **Reply #35 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:23:16 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Yet you dismiss St Alphonsus when he gives the theological note of de fide to BOD/BOB.

The St. Alphonsus quote that I posted *is* echoing the de fide teachings of the Church. You cannot argue that. All you do is ignore it like he never said it and the same with St. Thomas' quote - you simply ignore them both as though they never said anything at all.

Now you are claiming that St. Alphonsus makes infallible "theological notes"? IMO, that is the biggest exception that you have made to date - you're going the wrong way, you're supposed to accept the truth, not makeup the faith as you go along.

Didn't you read where I quoted Trent's catechism stating the sacrament was necessary for all - which echoes defined dogma?

Again, unless exceptions to the dogma are made, the common theory of BOD does not exist.
You make exceptions to the dogma all the time but why is it that you deny you are making these exceptions?

St. Alphonsus was made a Doctor of the Church. The Church did not remove this teaching of his nor can you produce anybody who ever noticed this rather glaring "error." That's because IT'S NOT AN ERROR!

The truth is that you are the one making exceptions, as in that you exclude anything that doesn't agree with your understanding of the "clear words" of a dogma.

You are talking yourself into a hole again SJB. Again, at least you are no longer claiming the catechism teaches BOD like you were - so that is a step in the right direction.

You said NOBODY explains it like me - but I showed you St. Alphonsus (and St. Thomas) explains it like me - why do you deny this?

I showed you the catechism directly from Trent which is explaining it just like me - (Truth is, I explain it like the catechism) why do you deny this?

Why (obviously falsely) accuse me of making exceptions when I literally quote that which has literally been explicitly defined?

St. Alphonsus: "It should be known that baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary of all the Sacraments. Without baptism, no one can enter heaven."

I'm sorry St. Alphonsus is (obviously) inconsistent in his teaching but he is still a great saint - and humans are often inconsistent - which is why the dogma was defined the way it was, said what it said and whose meaning will remain unchanged forever.

You misunderstand. It does teach it, that's why St. Alphonsus references it.

SJB · « **Reply #36 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:25:50 AM »

Quote

I'm sorry St. Alphonsus is (obviously) inconsistent in his teaching but he is still a great saint - and humans are often inconsistent - which is why the dogma was defined the way it was, said what it said and whose meaning will remain unchanged forever.

Yes, "obviously" even though NOBODY noticed this and when the Church made him a Doctor of the Church they didn't notice it either. But YOU are here to teach us all truth, right?

Stubborn · « **Reply #37 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:25:53 AM »

Quote from: SJB

I understand it's teaching in the manner that all theologians understand it. Yours is the lonely position, the one with nothing supporting it and opposed to all of the authorized teachers in the Church.

St. Alphonsus teaches thus, "now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Then St. Robert Bellarmine: "... I answer therefore that, when it is said outside the Church no one is saved, it must be understood of those who belong to her neither in actual fact nor in desire [desiderio], as theologians commonly speak on baptism."

Shall I post a quote from St. Robert teaching the necessity of the sacrament for all?

Quoting Our Lord, Trent, the catechism, St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus (not to mention the tons of quotes bowler and others have posted) has not made you accept the teaching, will a quote from St. Robert do the trick sir or are you resolved to reject the obvious facts no matter what?

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

SJB · « **Reply #38 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:28:41 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB

I understand it's teaching in the manner that all theologians understand it. Yours is the lonely position, the one with nothing supporting it and opposed to all of the authorized teachers in the Church.

St. Alphonsus teaches thus, "now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Then St. Robert Bellarmine: "... I answer therefore that, when it is said outside the Church no one is saved, it must be understood of those who belong to her neither in actual fact nor in desire [desiderio], as theologians commonly speak on baptism."

Shall I post a quote from St. Robert teaching the necessity of the sacrament for all?

Quoting Our Lord, Trent, the catechism, St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus (not to mention the tons of quotes bowler and others have posted) has not made you accept the teaching, will a quote from St. Robert do the trick sir or are you resolved to reject the obvious facts no matter what?

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Stubborn · « **Reply #39 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:28:58 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote
St. Alphonsus: "It should be known that baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary of all the Sacraments. Without baptism, no one can enter heaven."

You misunderstand. It does teach it, that's why St. Alphonsus references it.

Must we take your word for it again?

Please point out exactly where my misunderstanding lies using his quote above.

Stubborn · « **Reply #40 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:32:47 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Obviously SOMEBODY noticed else the popes would have had no need to define the dogma.

SJB · « **Reply #41 on:** June 19, 2013, 06:41:43 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Obviously SOMEBODY noticed else the popes would have had no need to define the dogma.

The entire question is over the dogma. You can't refer to the dogma to refute the fact that NOBODY has ever held your view!

Stubborn · « **Reply #42 on:** June 19, 2013, 07:06:41 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Obviously SOMEBODY noticed else the popes would have had no need to define the dogma.

The entire question is over the dogma. You can't refer to the dogma to refute the fact that NOBODY has ever held your view!

You keep making that erroneous statement.

Our Lord himself, the very popes who declared the dogma, the Council of Trent, Trent's catechism, St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas and umpteen other saints, all held "my view".

Are you not reading what has been posted or do you simply not believe what has been posted?

SJB · « **Reply #43 on:** June 19, 2013, 07:55:17 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Obviously SOMEBODY noticed else the popes would have had no need to define the dogma.

The entire question is over the dogma. You can't refer to the dogma to refute the fact that NOBODY has ever held your view!

You keep making that erroneous statement.

Our Lord himself, the very popes who declared the dogma, the Council of Trent, Trent's catechism, St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas and umpteen other saints, all held "my view".

Are you not reading what has been posted or do you simply not believe what has been posted?

Show us an authority who EXPLAINS it the way you understand it.

Stubborn · « **Reply #44 on:** June 19, 2013, 08:03:41 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn

What *would* it take to convince you? - if nothing else, please answer this one question.

There is no contradiction. It's only in your mind and that is proven because NOBODY has ever noticed what you claim you see so clearly.

Obviously SOMEBODY noticed else the popes would have had no need to define the dogma.

The entire question is over the dogma. You can't refer to the dogma to refute the fact that NOBODY has ever held your view!

You keep making that erroneous statement.

Our Lord himself, the very popes who declared the dogma, the Council of Trent, Trent's catechism, St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas and umpteen other saints, all held "my view".

Are you not reading what has been posted or do you simply not believe what has been posted?

Show us an authority who EXPLAINS it the way you understand it.

The catechism from Trent is not an authority for you any longer?