Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: LaramieHirsch on May 24, 2017, 01:05:48 PM

Title: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 24, 2017, 01:05:48 PM
Why is Opus Dei bad?  

1. Is it bad because it's an organization that seeks to accuмulate money and power?  

2. Is it bad for Catholics or a Catholic organizations in general to accuмulate money and power?  

Please help me with these two questions.

-Laramie
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Geremia on May 24, 2017, 03:17:02 PM
Opus Dei is similar to other church-within-a-church "ecclesial movements" like Neocatechumenal Way, Communion & Liberation (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/bergoglios-longtime-relation-w-the-modernist-'ecclesial-movement'/msg403938/#msg403938), Knights of Columbus (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/knights-of-columbus-promotes-amenicanism-heresy/msg248033/#msg248033), etc.

Look at Opus Dei's founder, too; he's a new-"saint" for a new "church".
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Geremia on May 24, 2017, 03:31:57 PM
1. Is it bad because it's an organization that seeks to accuмulate money and power? 
2. Is it bad for Catholics or a Catholic organizations in general to accuмulate money and power? 
Re: #1: No. It's bad because it's Modernist.
Re: #2: Of course not, else founding a church would be a sin.
The Knights Templar (https://isidore.co/misc/Audiobooks/The%20Knights%20Templar/playlist.m3u), for example, started off orthodox, accuмulated wealth to fund the crusades (basically creating the first international banking system), but unfortunately they later started getting corrupted and being involved in occult rituals (which is what most people today think the Templars were).
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 24, 2017, 04:12:42 PM
Okay.  So Opus Dei is bad for who it is, not for what it is?
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 24, 2017, 05:05:08 PM
There have been many threads here on Opus Judei. Here is one: 

https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/all-the-men-behind-the-opus-dei-curtain/msg548416/#msg548416 
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 24, 2017, 06:00:47 PM
A note of interest: Opus Dei does not have a Catholic image. Look at this link 

http://www.odan.org/foundations.htm

and you will see they never use a Catholic name for their institutions (unless they take over an already named parish). They use names like Tangara and Redcliffe - names that nobody would associate with the Catholic Church.

They are a secret society and hide themselves from view as Catholics. But they are literally everywhere. Insidious. Their methods are cultish because they are a cult with some very high flying members, in both religious and secular circles. 

Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Geremia on May 24, 2017, 07:30:54 PM
Okay.  So Opus Dei is bad for who it is, not for what it is?
How did you interpret that from what I wrote?
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 24, 2017, 08:20:37 PM
How did you interpret that from what I wrote?
Genuine misunderstanding.  Plus, it often seems people dislike it for what it is.  For example:
A note of interest: Opus Dei does not have a Catholic image. Look at this link

They are a secret society and hide themselves from view as Catholics. But they are literally everywhere. Insidious. Their methods are cultish because they are a cult with some very high flying members, in both religious and secular circles.


I'm not so sure I oppose a Catholic secret society.  We need power.  
So, if people dislike Opus Dei for having money, power, influence, and secrecy...I'm not so sure I oppose that.  
However, if the organization is modernist or something, then that's a different story.  
I want us Catholics to have a stronghold, damnit.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Lighthouse on May 24, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
"...they are a cult with some very high flying members, in both religious and secular circles. "

Yep, and you'll often find that the question is whether they want you, not whether you want them. A very closed society. People with lesser qualifications (in their eyes) are only good for washing dishes and changing the bed linens.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: PG on May 24, 2017, 11:27:39 PM
Laramie - make straight the way of the Lord.  Opus dei does not do that.  They sacrifice substance for accident.  And, that is one of our biggest problems.  It is also the reason for their secrecy.  
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: poche on May 24, 2017, 11:28:55 PM
The purpose for Opus Dei is for its members to live the holiness that God calls them to live in the world. It helps many people. Liberals have a tendency to dislike them because of their success. Apparently they are not for everyone. 
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 25, 2017, 12:16:26 AM
They sacrifice substance for accident.  And, that is one of our biggest problems.  It is also the reason for their secrecy.  
PG, what do mean by "sacrifice substance for accident"? Can you explain and expound on that, please.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 25, 2017, 01:34:49 AM
PG, what do mean by "sacrifice substance for accident"? Can you explain and expound on that, please.
I agree.  That's an intriguing statement.  What does it mean?
I also asked this question over at Catholic Answers for giggles.  I'll post the replies here later.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 25, 2017, 10:03:29 AM
Opus Dei usually seeks membership among professionals or the well heeled.
It's also a secret society and Our Lord was always against secrets.
 "No man lighteth a candle, and putteth it in a hidden place, nore under a bushel; but upon a candlestick, that they that come in, may see the light". 

Title: Octopus Dei, doing the work of Antichrist since 1952...
Post by: White Wolf on May 25, 2017, 03:48:41 PM
 Let's see, Opus Dei's founder, Fr Eschriva... during the Last Crusade when Spanish priests were dying for the faith, this guy chickened out and hid in an insane asylum, where he did a very good job convincing the Commies he was loony as 10 hours of Bugs Bunny. 

When it comes to sacrificing substance for accident, I am reminded of those old Canon camera commercials where this professional photographer proclaims that "Image is Everything".  A good example of sacrificing substance for accidents is the New York Times, which really does not have anything to say but says it with very glitzy pictures and flashy prose.

It is bad to accuмulate money and power.  The St Paul tells us that Our Lord Jesus Christ did not deem equality with God as something to be grasped, but rather emptied himself, taking the form of a slave.  When we try to accuмulated money and power we are either evil or seeking evil under the appearance of good, as per the exercises of St Ignatius of Loyola.

One of the reason we are in this mess is because many people do not trust in God, including the popes, and feel they must be relevant to the modern world rather than Faith and Tradition.

Our Lord tells us not to worry about the future or material things.  Yes, we must act prudently according to our duties of state, but we must never fall prey to disordered cares, that we would compromise our ideals to attain material things.

Moreover, wealth is a burden.  Just ask anybody who has a boat, or an extra car or cottage, how much they love keeping it clean and etc... :P

As fir Octopus Dei, by their fruits do we know them, and they have more fruits and nuts than California.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: St Jude Thaddeus on May 25, 2017, 05:59:51 PM
Great post, White Wolf! I don't post on here very often but I read from this forum every day. I have to admit that I read a few of your posts on another thread and I thought, "This canine's been into the catnip" but the above post has made me change my mind about you.

Opus Dei is just a wannabe Masonic lodge where middle to upper level bureaucrats and business people can play at being trads without having to criticize the pope or Vat2, which wouldn't go over too well at Sunday Mass in the fancy Novus Ordo spaceship church or at the country club for a few holes afterwards. They did a pretty good job of ruining Spain (yes, they made it rich for about 30 years and now it's one of the least Catholic countries in Europe, and broke as well) and they've tried to do the same in some Latin American countries like Chile and Mexico. Secret societies have no place in the CATHOLIC church.
Title: Re: Octopus Dei, doing the work of Antichrist since 1952...
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 25, 2017, 07:39:21 PM

It is bad to accuмulate money and power...
People who say this generally are unemployed and live off someone else.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: St Jude Thaddeus on May 25, 2017, 08:39:25 PM
"I was born poor, I lived in poverty, I wish to die poor." - Last will and testament of Pope St. Pius X.

A quote from that well-known welfare bum, St. Pius X

If you're born with money or power, use it for the good of the Church and the greater glory of God. If you're not, don't waste your life trying to get it.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 25, 2017, 08:56:59 PM
"I was born poor, I lived in poverty, I wish to die poor." - Last will and testament of Pope St. Pius X.

A quote from that well-known welfare bum, St. Pius X

If you're born with money or power, use it for the good of the Church and the greater glory of God. If you're not, don't waste your life trying to get it.
Lol!  Let the self-righteous platitudes begin!
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on May 26, 2017, 01:52:14 AM
Answers I got from CAF yesterday for the very same questions I had in this thread.  

https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1053043


* * * * *


Quote
"When did you stop beating your wife?"

First of all, is Opus Dei really bad? (hint: no).



Quote
The question you should be asking is "why do people say Opus Dei is bad"?

Answer: because they either hate the Catholic Church and all it stands for, or they are ignorant fools who believe what they read in a fictional novel by Dan Brown..

Opus Dei is a personal prelature of the Pope. It was founded by SAINT Jose Marie Escriva and in short, encourages people to find God in their daily work. There is NOTHING bad about it.

http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/ (http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/)

__________________

Quote
You phrased your question with the assumption already made. That's not a sign of asking a question in good faith.

The proper phrasing is: "Is Opus Dei bad? If so, why?"

Let Opus Dei speak for itself:
http://http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/message/ (http://http//www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/message/)

Read about its SAINTED founder:
http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article...e-john-paul-i/ (http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/article-by-cardinal-albino-luciani-later-pope-john-paul-i/)

Read what St. John Paul II said when he erected Opus Dei as a personal prelature.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cbisutsi.htm (http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cbisutsi.htm)
(http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cbisutsi.htm)
Quote
Your friends' perception is probably due to the fact that it is a secret society (if I understand correctly), and to people outside such groups this secrecy lends an air of having secrets they need to hide, and this is reinforced by the rumors of mortifications that they practice.

Quote
 Re: Why would Opus Dei be bad?

Because of bad fiction and conspiracy theories.

Quote


OP, you might find this thread from last year useful: What is Opus Dei? and why are they so controversial? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1015851)

I will re-purpose my answer from that thread. For a rigorously even-handed portrayal, you can check out John Allen's book: "Opus Dei: An Objective Look Behind the Myths and Reality of the Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church". It's about $5 used on Amazon.

Allen's one of the most well-rounded and fair-minded Catholic journalists out there (IMO) and he gives a thorough airing to the arguments for and against Opus Dei. He comes at it from a neutral perspective and really gets at the heart of all the issues (and ends up coming away with a surprisingly positive view). I am thoroughly glad I read it.



Quote
I have heard many people say that Opus Dei is good. 

(https://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/cool.gif)




Quote
It probably has some secrets, but they're not all that secret. While he was in school, my son was invited to teach in one of their schools in NYC to "at risk" teenage boys. While there, he lived the life the Opus Dei people live. Kind of Spartan. Lots of prayer. Also, lots of interesting talks by some extraordinary people. The meals are good but just a little short of ample. In the evening, they tend to get together and listen to some expert on something or other talk. Tonight it might be theology. Tomorrow night it might be nuclear physics. Next night it might be some aspect of the law. Next perhaps medicine. Next perhaps some argument of St. Thomas Aquinas. Typically, they have one (just one) beer, mixed drink or glass of wine at those talks. That's their relaxation time. They don't watch TV.

Pretty intellectual, but also pretty spiritual. Their habits are very punctual and regular.

What I think puts some people off is that there is, within it, an even more Spartan group that live celibate lives in community, which is what my son experienced. They share a life of prayer and work. All or most of them work outside the community and are all kinds of things; doctors, lawyers, architects, government people.

They're not conspiring to take over the world. A lot of Opus Dei is about showing your faith in your work and setting example.

I don't see a single thing wrong with it.







Quote
"...due to the fact that it is a secret society." ???

What is that supposed to mean?? That is no "fact." And what is the source of such "facts"? Hearsay and gossip from folks who loathe orthodox Catholicism I'll guess.

The label "secret society" gets thrown around casually, yet no one seems to define what that is. I suppose for some people, unless Opus Dei members publish when they eat, sleep, drink, pray, and fart each day, they're being "secretive." 

I'm not sure what "secrets" some people are after. Ridiculous. Probably after information that is personal and none of their business anyway.



Quote
Hi. (https://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif) I have my doubts about certain societies, and in some cases these come in the form of very strong reservations, yet, still, we have to be careful not to get pulled into the conspiracy theorist's undisciplined imagination, no doubt often accompanied by too many D.B novels, and material of a similar brand. Start with fact, not fiction. It is okay to not like everything and even to seriously call into question some areas of religious practice, but do make sure that your reservations and questions on the matter, are accompanied instead, by lots of prayer.

Quote
Heh. (https://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) I wonder what the percentage breakdown would be between those who hate the Catholic Church and those who are ignorant fools.

Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: cassini on May 26, 2017, 08:39:52 AM
I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?

Opus Dei, in my experience, attracted many good Catholics to practice their faith within a group of Catholics. They also attracted men and women who, for their own reasons did not want to become nuns and priests, but could offer their lives to God in a 'working' way. How many posters have done that?

That said, they are 'blessed' in the manner they accuмulate property and wealth. No more than the Church of 2,000 years did judging by the property and buildings they accuмulated up to 1960. If one finds fault in this, then the Church itself must share that fault. As individuals, they do not share in any wealth, but live modestly as any Catholic should.

Unfortunately, such is their 'system' that volunteers are inclined to become institutionalised, with little or no opinion of their own. They must comply to what unfortunately is obedience to modernist Rome without QUESTION.

To sum up, one recently told me Pope Francis is 'a breath of fresh air.' Need I say any more.

All this as it may be, there are in its ranks many Catholics living very good lives as God would want us to do. 
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: poche on May 27, 2017, 04:24:55 AM
I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?

Opus Dei, in my experience, attracted many good Catholics to practice their faith within a group of Catholics. They also attracted men and women who, for their own reasons did not want to become nuns and priests, but could offer their lives to God in a 'working' way. How many posters have done that?

That said, they are 'blessed' in the manner they accuмulate property and wealth. No more than the Church of 2,000 years did judging by the property and buildings they accuмulated up to 1960. If one finds fault in this, then the Church itself must share that fault. As individuals, they do not share in any wealth, but live modestly as any Catholic should.

Unfortunately, such is their 'system' that volunteers are inclined to become institutionalised, with little or no opinion of their own. They must comply to what unfortunately is obedience to modernist Rome without QUESTION.

To sum up, one recently told me Pope Francis is 'a breath of fresh air.' Need I say any more.

All this as it may be, there are in its ranks many Catholics living very good lives as God would want us to do.
My father when he was alive used to go to their days of reflection and to confession to them.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: St Jude Thaddeus on May 27, 2017, 01:58:35 PM
I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?
I have personal experience, or rather, my mother does. One of her best friends from high school and their family moved to Canada to join an Opus Dei "community" and fled several years later back to their home. Their particular case was mentioned in the Vaticanista John Allen's book about Opus Dei.

Opus Dei, in the long run, isn't much different from the Jehovah's Witnesses. It's just a money-making machine with a neo-conservative facade designed to lure people who are serious about their faith but not ready to take the step of returning to tradition. They are pious frauds.

They preach unyielding loyalty to the N.O. hierarchy regardless of what that hierarchy does or says. And the N.O. hierarchy loves all the $$ that Opus Dei drops into the collection basket. It's a marriage of convenience.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: St Jude Thaddeus on May 27, 2017, 02:04:36 PM
My father when he was alive used to go to their days of reflection and to confession to them.
So that explains why you, the most liberal poster on Cathinfo, are all gung-ho for Opus Dei? That's not very intellectually honest, is it?
My dad was in the Knights of Columbus for the last thirty years of his life. Does that mean I should be a cheerleader for them, too? Any organization, however pious or well-intentioned, that goes belly up for the N.O. hierarchy, is in the long run an enemy of the restoration of Our Holy Catholic Church and the salvation of souls. 
Title: What makes the big lie respectable...
Post by: White Wolf on May 28, 2017, 04:38:33 AM
is that Respectable people support the big lie.

I saw it all in a video yesterday.  Pope Frantic and Donald Chump (my new official name for this POTUS, who dropped the MOAB on himself by bombing Syria and now he's a representative of Raytheon for the Saudis...), shaking hands at the Vatican, and later Melania Chump giving an intro for her "husband"  (Hasn't Chump had more wives than Henry?) that almost made me vomit.  She didn't mention that somebody had to die on the organ harvesting table so that Greek boy could get his "heart transplant" nor that our "troops" killed over 2 million people in Iraq while spreading freedom and democracy, and tossing puppies over cliffs in their spare time, and starring in propaganda flicks like saving Jessica Lynch, and etc.  Welcome to Disney World.  Maybe in four years we'll actually elect Mickey Mouse...
So it surprises me none that somebody can collect a multitude of quotes from Sheepledom praising Octopus Dei, and Fr Escriva, who, let's see, was canonized by JP2.  What a ringing endorsement!

I'm sure there are some great people in Octopus Dei.  I'm also sure there were great soldiers fighting for nαzι Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Ghegnis Khan.  I'm sure there were some great writers for Playboy and Penthouse.  I'm sure Julius III had some great theologians.  Anybody want to applaud those people and organizations?
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: congaudeant on May 29, 2017, 09:06:32 AM
Opus Dei is no friend of tradtional Catholicism. It is, on the other hand, a hotbed of novus ordo activity.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 29, 2017, 04:42:09 PM
Opus Dei is no friend of tradtional Catholicism. It is, on the other hand, a hotbed of novus ordo activity.
It's worse than that, Congaudeant. Octopus Judei anticipated Vatican II while the rest of us had no need or desire for it. From the horse's mouth: http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/the-work-and-vatican-ii/
The Work and Vatican II
From the doctrinal point of view, is the Work traditionalist or traditional? And how does that fit in with Vatican II?

OTHER DOcuмENTS May 9, 2004

“Traditionalism,” in its different forms, is a sickness based on a mistaken concept of Tradition. In its genuine meaning, “Tradition” plays an important role in the Church along with Sacred Scripture, from which it is inseparable.

The Church has a splendid history. Her spiritual treasures—the saints—light up with their lives the past twenty centuries, and light up our lives today. The Church is also the source of culture, of incomparable works of art, science, literature, education, and charity. This history also lives in the heart of every human being through Jesus Christ, who is the same today, yesterday, and forever.
The Second Vatican Council spoke to us about all of this. Its docuмents also enable us to hear the voice of our Founder, who preached many of those same ideas beginning in the 1930s. All of the Church’s councils form a unity of teaching doctrine, none of it contradictory. And so, if I may put it this way, Opus Dei finds its doctrinal patrimony in Vatican II; there one finds both what is new and what is traditional.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: poche on May 29, 2017, 11:48:05 PM
So that explains why you, the most liberal poster on Cathinfo, are all gung-ho for Opus Dei? That's not very intellectually honest, is it?
My dad was in the Knights of Columbus for the last thirty years of his life. Does that mean I should be a cheerleader for them, too? Any organization, however pious or well-intentioned, that goes belly up for the N.O. hierarchy, is in the long run an enemy of the restoration of Our Holy Catholic Church and the salvation of souls.
The purpose of Opus Dei is the sanctification of its members. If it doesn't help the person grow in holiness then maybe that person should leave or not associate themselves with them. Obviously they are not for everyone. There is also the SSPX third order. Their purpose is also to help the laity grow in the holiness that is the charism of the SSPX But are they for everyone? 
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 30, 2017, 12:14:33 AM
The purpose of Opus Dei is the sanctification of its members. If it doesn't help the person grow in holiness then maybe that person should leave or not associate themselves with them. Obviously they are not for everyone. There is also the SSPX third order. Their purpose is also to help the laity grow in the holiness that is the charism of the SSPX But are they for everyone?
I don't believe it is difficult to get out of SSPX 3rd order, but Opus Dei is not in the same league, and it is ridiculous to compare one with the other. The internet is awash with stories from people who have left OD which, as with any cult, has a strong emotional hold on its members.
.
This is worth a read:
http://www.opus-info.org/index.php?title=Seventeen_Years_in_Opus_Dei
Title: The Purpose of Octopus Dei is sanctification?
Post by: White Wolf on May 30, 2017, 12:41:57 PM
I suppose that is the purpose of the Mormons also.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: PG on May 30, 2017, 02:58:55 PM
Nadir - thanks for that link to a personal testimony by a former member.  That was worth reading.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on May 31, 2017, 11:31:15 PM
Has your question been answered, Laramie?
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on June 01, 2017, 04:48:45 AM
Has your question been answered, Laramie?
Yes.  It's a good thread.  I appreciate the various links especially.  Thanks.  

Yes, it appears that Opus Dei is a materialized power structure for the Novus Ordo mindset.  In my opinion, this is why Opus Dei is bad.  Not because it is an organization that is secret, and not because Opus Dei is pseudo-secret about itself.  

I do not think that a Catholic organization is bad simply because it is gaining power.  I don't think a Catholic organization is bad if it is secret.  I do not think a Catholic organization is bad if it is gaining influence and power.  Why?  Basically, if we EVER want to see Catholics gain some kind of a foothold in the world, then we are going to need money and power.  Just like the Medieval Age.  

For example, let us suppose you want to see America transform into a Catholic monarchical confessional state.  You are going to need to have a structure.  A network.  A group with power.  Furthermore, if this group is to have power, they are going to need money.  

I said in a recent post on my blog: "Catholics, these days, now have an aversion to material things.  Again, we are not living at the height of the Middle Ages.  One glance at the spartan designs of post Vatican II parishes will tell that story.  For more than a generation, there has been utter contempt for the materialistic and "triumphalist" development of the Catholic Church."

http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/05/why-catholics-dont-tithe-as-much-as.html

A powerbase of Catholic strength facing off against the crappy bi-factional ruling party of this failed nation would give me great hope.  I would love to see some sort of a Catholic Party in this country.  

That being said, such a Catholic organization(s) would need to not be a Novus Ordo wreck.  This catty, modernist, Voris-style "beige liberalism" Catholic nonsense will NOT DO.  Nor will anything as dishonest as the coercive nature of this Opus Dei organization.  Reading the testimonials of this thing, I can see that its existence is dubious.  I could be wrong, but at this point, red flags come up for me after reading what you all have linked to.  

I don't think a lot of Catholics put their money into various parishes and Catholic organizations because they expect their money to be squandered.  But if there were some sort of organization of Catholics whose sole intention was to accuмulate strength and power--UNCOMPROMISINGLY--I think that would give a lot of hope to Catholics, renew their spirits, and inspire them to contribute to the effort.  ...the war effort.  Because  this is cultural war.  

North America was Catholic first.  This period of Hebraic Puritanism on this continent can end if we just ride out to meet it.  

My Catolica America series is all about justifying, laying out, discussing, and enforcing the idea of a solid, tangible gain for Catholics in this region.  


But as for Opus Dei, I am surprised people dislike it on the basis that it is a secret organization that gains wealth.  There is a time and place when wealth is necessary.  
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on June 01, 2017, 05:15:30 AM
wow.  so much redundancy in that last post.  It's 5am.  I'm tired.  Apparently repeating myself.
Title: Secrecy is always bad, except in the confessional...
Post by: White Wolf on June 03, 2017, 05:28:48 AM
Interesting quote:
"In my opinion, this is why Opus Dei is bad.  Not because it is an organization that is secret, and not because Opus Dei is pseudo-secret about itself. "
Secrecy always gives rise to speculation, rumors, gossip, hearsay, etc.  I knew the SSPX was on its way down when Bishop Fellay started doing "negotiations" in secret.  The truth never operates in secret.  Our Lord told the Jєωs: " I have spoken openly to the world: I have always taught in the ѕуηαgσgυє, and in the temple, whither all the Jєωs resort; and in secret I have spoken nothing."
If only "Catholic" organizations would have such a policy.
The same problem exists within the Knights of Columbus.  All these secrets is just immaturity masquerading as sophistication.  I just wish these people would grow up.
Title: Re: Secrecy is always bad, except in the confessional...
Post by: LaramieHirsch on June 03, 2017, 05:48:04 AM
Interesting quote:
"In my opinion, this is why Opus Dei is bad.  Not because it is an organization that is secret, and not because Opus Dei is pseudo-secret about itself. "
Secrecy always gives rise to speculation, rumors, gossip, hearsay, etc.  I knew the SSPX was on its way down when Bishop Fellay started doing "negotiations" in secret.  The truth never operates in secret.  Our Lord told the Jєωs: " I have spoken openly to the world: I have always taught in the ѕуηαgσgυє, and in the temple, whither all the Jєωs resort; and in secret I have spoken nothing."
If only "Catholic" organizations would have such a policy.
The same problem exists within the Knights of Columbus.  All these secrets is just immaturity masquerading as sophistication.  I just wish these people would grow up.
Wrong.
The Hebrews had to keep political and military secrets throughout Scriptures.  Esther kept a secret when she hid her nationality, enabling her to save her people.  "A man of understanding holds his tongue," according to Proverbs.  God keeps secrets from us.  Christ asked His disciples to keep some miracles secret.  The priest keeps our secrets in the confessional.
An organization that keeps no confidence, is always an open book to everyone, and wears its intentions on its sleeve is destined for destruction.  
The Maryland colony's Catholics failed to keep private and have a vetting process for Protestants, leading to the Catholic sanctuary's demise.  Same goes for Dr. John McLoughlin's mistakes when he lost Oregon Country to Protestant American settlers--losing a potential Catholic power base in the Northwest.   
Even our Holy Mother asked three children to keep secrets at Fatima.  
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: Nadir on June 03, 2017, 07:31:31 AM
There is nothing evil per se in secrecy. It is like a knife or a gun - which can used for good purpose or for evil. It all depends on what you do with it, and for what purpose you use it.
.

Openness is the way to win friends. Secrecy, as WW says, gives rise to speculation, rumors, gossip, hearsay, etc, but not always
.

We know why the early Christians secreted themselves in catacombs etc. For them it was a matter of life and death. It was never so they could climb in society and make lots of money and gain power. That is not the sort of things genuine folk do, if they are disciples of Jesus, who had nowhere to lay His head. It is not the way to conquer nations for Christ. 

.
There were, of course, rich Christians in those early days, who provided their homes converting them to Churches. Neither is there evil in riches, provided  they are used responsibly and generously for the Kingdom.

.
Title: Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
Post by: LaramieHirsch on June 03, 2017, 08:09:07 AM
...Christians secreted themselves in catacombs etc. For them it was a matter of life and death. It was never so they could climb in society and make lots of money and gain power. That is not the sort of things genuine folk do, if they are disciples of Jesus, who had nowhere to lay His head. It is not the way to conquer nations for Christ....
.
It's an excellent way to conquer nations for Christ.  In fact, there are many different ways to conquer nations for Christ.  Secretly mobilizing resources is a battle tactic in war.  And it's far "kinder" than slaughtering men, women, and children in order to conquer, as is done by the Hebrews in the Old Testament.  

Being a gullible organization that tries to make friends with everyone, being discreet about nothing (Bishop Fellay, anyone?), will only lead to being metaphorically "shot in the back of the head" by the "moderates" who eventually betray you.  You will not win a long-term cultural war by constantly playing defense.  Catholics will forever be the loser in the social spaces.  And accepting that fate in politics and society, rather than work towards a constructive new paradigm that is Catholic, is a shitty thing to do to one's children and descendants.

Even the saint kings had wealth and power.  And I highly doubt they wore every thought on their sleeve when it came to their policies.  

Should there ever be an effort among Catholics to attempt to retake control of the West in pieces or in whole, a great mobilization will have to occur, and not all of the operations should be revealed to our enemies.  Attaining money and power for the sake of money and power is, of course, wrong.  The cause should be to restore Christendom--and not as the modernists see it.  

But a Traditional Catholic political organization or movement being gleefully open about its every maneuver will ensure that Catholics have a boot on their neck until the Chastisement, and guarantees that Christendom will have no chance of blooming until God Himself kills off all the baddies for us.  

Sitting around and waiting for the Catholic Rapture isn't, exactly, something we should be doing.  We should be working to win over people in our personal lives, but also politically and socially.  The latter requires strength.  Strength of resources, but also the strength of will...which most Catholics lack.