Author Topic: Opus Dei and Pope Pius XII (Read 4970 times)

Cantarella · « **Reply #30 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:52:24 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Cantarella
On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII
With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

Wow! It seems from this quote that he believed in evolution and the big bang. I would expect that from a conciliar pope, but not from him.

Yes, imagine our reaction if these very words were coming from Pope Francis today.

Cantarella · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2015, 01:42:20 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

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Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Bellator Dei
Quote from: Ladislaus
And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney.

This was a key factor in paving the way for Vatican II. If Pope Pius XII would have defended the EENS dogma, it is very doubtful that VII would have actually happened. However, it is well known that the Church had already been infiltrated by the masons and that their agenda was already full steam ahead during the reign of Pius XII.

The Pope DOES defend EENS & Fr Feeney. I suggest reading Humani Generis

Are these paragraphs the whole basis of your assertion?

From Humani Generis:

Quote

14. In theology some want to reduce to a minimum the meaning of dogmas; and to free dogma itself from terminology long established in the Church and from philosophical concepts held by Catholic teachers, to bring about a return in the explanation of Catholic doctrine to the way of speaking used in Holy Scripture and by the Fathers of the Church. They cherish the hope that when dogma is stripped of the elements which they hold to be extrinsic to divine revelation, it will compare advantageously with the dogmatic opinions of those who are separated from the unity of the Church and that in this way they will gradually arrive at a mutual assimilation of Catholic dogma with the tenets of the dissidents.

Quote

27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

..... the necessity of belonging to the one true Church is what EENS( Fr Feeney's crusade) Is....

Yes I do think that this is in response to a letter of Fr Feeney advising the Pope that some rascals in Boston were in heresy re: EENS. :detective:

Yes, and there was great jubilation at Saint Benedict Center when Humani Generis was published in 1950 as it was taken as Pope Pius XII re-affirming EENS, as written, and supporting Fr. Feeney, but then...what happened? Fr. Feeney was dismissed by the American Jesuits pretending there was an issue of disobedience. They wanted to silence him at all costs.

Nobody · « **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2015, 01:47:01 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

Quote from: Nobody
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: CathMomof7
I am starting to think that Pope Pius XII opened the floodgates of Modernism into the Church. NFP. Divine Mercy.

It's quite clear that this was the case. Add to this list the liturgical experimentation. Pius XII set up and enabled Bugnini. Pius XII also pioneered some of the first ecuмenical conferences. And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney. Not to mention that 99% of the glorious prelates who brought us the glories of Vatican II had been appointed by Pius XII.

Do you think Our Lord set up Judas and opened the floodgates ?

Unless you can prove that Pope Pius XII actively and willingly cooperated with evil, you may be doing him a great injustice to say the least.

And even if you could bring up some good arguments, is it really our business ? What purpose does it serve ?

Yes it is our business as truth Matters :cheers:

I disagree.

The only truth that matters to us is what is important to save our souls. All the rest is God's business, not ours.

So, is it really important to know to what extent Pius XII was responsible for 'opening the floodgates', as the OP claimed ?

I am having my hands full studying the catechism and the essential Church teachings, and especially putting it into practice. But, it always amazes me how many people seem to know so much about what happened decades and even centuries ago, and how many of them pretend to be experts and qualified to pass judgement on Saints and Popes, based on .. on what ? History books ? Newspaper clips ? Chinese whispers ?

Cantarella · « **Reply #33 on:** January 29, 2015, 12:15:54 PM »

Quote from: Nado

This itself "opens the floodgate" to blame every pope in history who was either contemporary with, or immediately preceded, every crisis. For instance, why not blame Leo XIII for the modernism that Pius X had to deal with? Why not blame Gregory XVI for the Liberalism that Pius IX had to contend with? Etc. Catholics just don't do that!

What arrogance to think one can put oneself in anyone's shoes in an authoritative and complicated position of authority, and say, "I would have done such-and-such if I were pope!" or "How could he have failed not to do such-and-such?!" It's impossible to know what knowledge a pope acted upon. All his knowledge hasn't been laid open to us, so we cannot judge. Nor do we know the necessary moral decisions involving "double effect", or the reasons for toleration in the face of "greater evil".

Charity itself has the principle that we should be thinking the best.

People should also know that even the dead have a strict right to their reputations. It's not just a free ticket to rash judge everyone who is dead, just because they are dead.

We need the proper Catholic mind-frame to suppose the popes did the best they could in the most trying circuмstances, and mid-20th century was no doubt the most trying. Upon Pius XII's death, the explosion of change hit like a tidal wave after his finger was removed from the dyke. That is positive evidence the man was eminently successful in holding back a great and terrible force.

Coming from a sedevacantist like you, ready to be judging "true popes" from "false ones" over nothing but perceived errors and personal opinions, the over - emotional post above is more than laughable. Why don't you apply the same level of prudence and "charity" towards the conciliar Popes, then?

Nobody · « **Reply #34 on:** January 29, 2015, 02:04:08 PM »

Quote from: Nado

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Quote from: roscoe
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Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: CathMomof7
I am starting to think that Pope Pius XII opened the floodgates of Modernism into the Church. NFP. Divine Mercy.

It's quite clear that this was the case. Add to this list the liturgical experimentation. Pius XII set up and enabled Bugnini. Pius XII also pioneered some of the first ecuмenical conferences. And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney. Not to mention that 99% of the glorious prelates who brought us the glories of Vatican II had been appointed by Pius XII.

Do you think Our Lord set up Judas and opened the floodgates ?

Unless you can prove that Pope Pius XII actively and willingly cooperated with evil, you may be doing him a great injustice to say the least.

And even if you could bring up some good arguments, is it really our business ? What purpose does it serve ?

Yes it is our business as truth Matters :cheers:

I disagree.

The only truth that matters to us is what is important to save our souls. All the rest is God's business, not ours.

So, is it really important to know to what extent Pius XII was responsible for 'opening the floodgates', as the OP claimed ?

I am having my hands full studying the catechism and the essential Church teachings, and especially putting it into practice. But, it always amazes me how many people seem to know so much about what happened decades and even centuries ago, and how many of them pretend to be experts and qualified to pass judgement on Saints and Popes, based on .. on what ? History books ? Newspaper clips ? Chinese whispers ?

I noticed nobody touched your question about Judas being picked by Our Lord.

This thread looks like another emotional, gossipy excuse to hit out against Pius XII, and littered with logical fallacies of "non-sequitur" and "guilt by association".

This itself "opens the floodgate" to blame every pope in history who was either contemporary with, or immediately preceded, every crisis. For instance, why not blame Leo XIII for the modernism that Pius X had to deal with? Why not blame Gregory XVI for the Liberalism that Pius IX had to contend with? Etc. Catholics just don't do that!

What arrogance to think one can put oneself in anyone's shoes in an authoritative and complicated position of authority, and say, "I would have done such-and-such if I were pope!" or "How could he have failed not to do such-and-such?!" It's impossible to know what knowledge a pope acted upon. All his knowledge hasn't been laid open to us, so we cannot judge. Nor do we know the necessary moral decisions involving "double effect", or the reasons for toleration in the face of "greater evil".

Charity itself has the principle that we should be thinking the best.

People should also know that even the dead have a strict right to their reputations. It's not just a free ticket to rash judge everyone who is dead, just because they are dead.

We need the proper Catholic mind-frame to suppose the popes did the best they could in the most trying circuмstances, and mid-20th century was no doubt the most trying. Upon Pius XII's death, the explosion of change hit like a tidal wave after his finger was removed from the dyke. That is positive evidence the man was eminently successful in holding back a great and terrible force.

I'm glad to say, I agree with every word of your post. I wasn't sure at first, but you seem to have understood my first comment about Judas being picked by Our Lord. It does not imply 'guilt by association'. Human free will and God's permissive will still have a role to play in events.

And I did think of Pope Leo XIII as well, especially his vision that the devil was given 100 years of great power. Can the Pope at the time be blamed if Our Lord grants the devil 100 years of extra power over the Church during his time as Pontiff ? Would anyone dare to accuse a Pope of being no match for the devil, especially after the latter was granted the extra powers he asked for ? Would anyone dare to accuse Our Lord of being too permissive ?

With regards to the current (or very recent) Popes, I think there is a big difference :

1. Their scandals are much clearer and closer to home, allowing us to get a more balanced picture.

2. It is obvious that they are far more permissive, negligent and even wilfully cooperative in the rot.

2. Their actions do affect us directly, ie they can influence or affect the salvation of our soul.

roscoe · « **Reply #35 on:** January 29, 2015, 02:52:51 PM »

Quote from: Nobody

Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Nobody
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: CathMomof7
I am starting to think that Pope Pius XII opened the floodgates of Modernism into the Church. NFP. Divine Mercy.

It's quite clear that this was the case. Add to this list the liturgical experimentation. Pius XII set up and enabled Bugnini. Pius XII also pioneered some of the first ecuмenical conferences. And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney. Not to mention that 99% of the glorious prelates who brought us the glories of Vatican II had been appointed by Pius XII.

Do you think Our Lord set up Judas and opened the floodgates ?

Unless you can prove that Pope Pius XII actively and willingly cooperated with evil, you may be doing him a great injustice to say the least.

And even if you could bring up some good arguments, is it really our business ? What purpose does it serve ?

Yes it is our business as truth Matters :cheers:

I disagree.

The only truth that matters to us is what is important to save our souls. All the rest is God's business, not ours.

So, is it really important to know to what extent Pius XII was responsible for 'opening the floodgates', as the OP claimed ?

I am having my hands full studying the catechism and the essential Church teachings, and especially putting it into practice. But, it always amazes me how many people seem to know so much about what happened decades and even centuries ago, and how many of them pretend to be experts and qualified to pass judgement on Saints and Popes, based on .. on what ? History books ? Newspaper clips ? Chinese whispers ?

I do not believe that Pius XII is responsible for 'opening the floodgates( whatever that means.)

MO is that you wull not save your soul if your life on this earth is filled with lies. Not only does truth matter, it is more important than anything. :pop:

Nobody · « **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2015, 06:24:11 PM »

Quote from: roscoe

Quote from: Nobody
Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Nobody
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: CathMomof7
I am starting to think that Pope Pius XII opened the floodgates of Modernism into the Church. NFP. Divine Mercy.

It's quite clear that this was the case. Add to this list the liturgical experimentation. Pius XII set up and enabled Bugnini. Pius XII also pioneered some of the first ecuмenical conferences. And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney. Not to mention that 99% of the glorious prelates who brought us the glories of Vatican II had been appointed by Pius XII.

Do you think Our Lord set up Judas and opened the floodgates ?

Unless you can prove that Pope Pius XII actively and willingly cooperated with evil, you may be doing him a great injustice to say the least.

And even if you could bring up some good arguments, is it really our business ? What purpose does it serve ?

Yes it is our business as truth Matters :cheers:

I disagree.

The only truth that matters to us is what is important to save our souls. All the rest is God's business, not ours.

So, is it really important to know to what extent Pius XII was responsible for 'opening the floodgates', as the OP claimed ?

I am having my hands full studying the catechism and the essential Church teachings, and especially putting it into practice. But, it always amazes me how many people seem to know so much about what happened decades and even centuries ago, and how many of them pretend to be experts and qualified to pass judgement on Saints and Popes, based on .. on what ? History books ? Newspaper clips ? Chinese whispers ?

I do not believe that Pius XII is responsible for 'opening the floodgates( whatever that means.)

MO is that you wull not save your soul if your life on this earth is filled with lies. Not only does truth matter, it is more important than anything. :pop:

Sounds nice, but that is not the point I made. We are not talking about filling our life with lies. We are talking about filling our life with truths that are not important to the salvation of our soul.

Not all truth matters to us. In fact, we have to be very selective about what truths we spend our time and energy on, since our time and brain power is very limited and we cannot possibly process and hold all truth.

It is a very effective snare of the devil to keep people occupied with non essentials, so that they take their mind of what's really important.

:pop: :pop:

roscoe · « **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2015, 08:38:03 PM »

All truths regarding the Church are important to the soul & that is what I am referring to. Scientific & material truths may not be quite as important.

There is a Martinezist cult in residence here & they typically after Pius XII-- true student(unlike Della Chiesa) of the master diplomat Card Rampolla who was in turn a deciple of Antonelli & before him Consalvi.

All I am saying is that it's not a good idea to believe them. :reporter: