Author Topic: Opus Dei and Pope Pius XII (Read 4978 times)

roscoe · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:35:04 PM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei

Quote from: Ladislaus
And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney.

This was a key factor in paving the way for Vatican II. If Pope Pius XII would have defended the EENS dogma, it is very doubtful that VII would have actually happened. However, it is well known that the Church had already been infiltrated by the masons and that their agenda was already full steam ahead during the reign of Pius XII.

The Pope DOES defend EENS & Fr Feeney. I suggest reading Humani Generis

roscoe · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:43:53 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

There's a long history here. I want to start a thread on it at some point.

As we know, supernatural faith involves both the intellect and the will. More and more the intellectual part was understated in favor of the good will, all in line with philosophical subjectivism from the Renaissance to Descartes to Kant.

Molinists started by emphasizing free will over grace.

Right around that time, the mostly-Jesuit theologians started to question the necessity of explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation for salvation, claiming that natural truths can in fact be believed with supernatural faith.

So, over time, supernatural faith in objective truths about God took a back seat to the will to believe what God teaches, and ultimately replaced it entirely.

Thus we have Vatican II and the ecclesiology of the sincere, subsistence ecclesiology, ecuмenism, partial communion, and ultimately religious liberty. It ALL FOLLOWS from this subjectivism. Many of the Traditional Catholic bishops and priests acknowledge subjectivism in Vatican II but they refuse to recognize its roots in the erosion of EENS over time.

There is no such thing as a 'Molinist' any more than there is such a thing as a "Feenyite" as Paul V exonerates them and that is the way it remains. If anyone wants to believe Ladislaus over the Pope be my guest.

It appears the Forum has a deciple of Cano and Noallis inciting scandal. Beware..... :smoke-pot:

roscoe · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:45:54 PM »

Quote from: Nobody

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: CathMomof7
I am starting to think that Pope Pius XII opened the floodgates of Modernism into the Church. NFP. Divine Mercy.

It's quite clear that this was the case. Add to this list the liturgical experimentation. Pius XII set up and enabled Bugnini. Pius XII also pioneered some of the first ecuмenical conferences. And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney. Not to mention that 99% of the glorious prelates who brought us the glories of Vatican II had been appointed by Pius XII.

Do you think Our Lord set up Judas and opened the floodgates ?

Unless you can prove that Pope Pius XII actively and willingly cooperated with evil, you may be doing him a great injustice to say the least.

And even if you could bring up some good arguments, is it really our business ? What purpose does it serve ?

Yes it is our business as truth Matters :cheers:

Cantarella · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2015, 01:49:09 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

Quote from: Bellator Dei
Quote from: Ladislaus
And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney.

This was a key factor in paving the way for Vatican II. If Pope Pius XII would have defended the EENS dogma, it is very doubtful that VII would have actually happened. However, it is well known that the Church had already been infiltrated by the masons and that their agenda was already full steam ahead during the reign of Pius XII.

The Pope DOES defend EENS & Fr Feeney. I suggest reading Humani Generis

Are these paragraphs the whole basis of your assertion?

From Humani Generis:

Quote

14. In theology some want to reduce to a minimum the meaning of dogmas; and to free dogma itself from terminology long established in the Church and from philosophical concepts held by Catholic teachers, to bring about a return in the explanation of Catholic doctrine to the way of speaking used in Holy Scripture and by the Fathers of the Church. They cherish the hope that when dogma is stripped of the elements which they hold to be extrinsic to divine revelation, it will compare advantageously with the dogmatic opinions of those who are separated from the unity of the Church and that in this way they will gradually arrive at a mutual assimilation of Catholic dogma with the tenets of the dissidents.

Quote

27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

Cantarella · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:06:09 AM »

On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII

With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

A delightful statement above for the atheists and the enemies of the Church. Were they really necessary? Statements such as this one opened the door for the Modernists in their scientific godless pursues, completely undermining the Book of Genesis. Such statements jeopardize the revealed truth that the whole universe is created for man alone, and that without him, physical creation has no meaning at all.

Cantarella · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:13:33 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

I also don't agree that he sanctioned the persecution of Fr Feeney. Quite the opposite as he supports him in Humani Generis with the comment on EENS.

Roscoe, the burden of proof is on you. I can see why you would deduce that Pius XII supported EENS (for the single statement in Humani Generis posted above, if that) but why do you specifically say that Pope Pius XII supported Fr. Feeney when to all eyes and appearances, after the whole conflict erupted, he actually supported Jew - friendly Cardinal Cushing, and in doing so, the whole American Masonic hierarchy?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #21 on:** January 28, 2015, 04:56:36 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

It is not clear to moi. Bugnini( like Spellman) was very clever in hiding his agenda with a cornucopia of zelante words. I do not hold the Pope responsible for them.

Right, roscoe; as I posted above, I have absolutely ZERO idea about the "why" part and the degree of responsibility of Pius XII. All I know is WHAT happened. Now, vis-a-vis things like evolution, NFP, etc. we do know there that Pius XII was responsible.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2015, 04:59:52 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

It is also not true that '99% of the Cards in the 1958 Conclave were his.

Whoever appointed the 1958 Cardinals, they elected the known favorite of the Pope as Gregory XVII. That is in all likelihood the truth.

Of course you're right; I meant 99% as a figure of speech (I don't have the actual numbers) for "vast majority" -- which stands to reason since Pius XII reigned for nearly 20 years. As for the election of Siri, Siri was just the safe (and expected) choice but that doesn't mean they voted for him due to considerations of orthodoxy.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** January 28, 2015, 05:04:20 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII
With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

A delightful statement above for the atheists and the enemies of the Church. Were they really necessary? Statements such as this one opened the door for the Modernists in their scientific godless pursues, completely undermining the Book of Genesis. Such statements jeopardize the revealed truth that the whole universe is created for man alone, and that without him, physical creation has no meaning at all.

Pius XII, like his successors, seemed to imply that "Creationism" could be reconciled with BigBang+Evolution just by saying that God did the Big Bang and then set in motion everything that would then evolve later on its own. Pius XII was well known to have had an excessive esteem for modern science ... which if you scratch beneath the surface is at its core a scam and a hoax perpetrated by the enemies of God.

Nadir · « **Reply #24 on:** January 28, 2015, 05:47:37 AM »

Pope Pius XII said:

Quote

With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies

.

Thank you for this quote, Cantarella.

A conservative FSSP-attending acquaintance once complained to me that the Opus Dei school to which she sent her children were teaching... yes you guessed it evolution.

Also you might notice that Opus Dei make it a point not to use saint's names for their institution or anything else that will make them appear Catholic. Always they use some secular sounding name, like Redfield College, Kenthurst Study Centre, Netherhall House, etc.

roscoe · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII
With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

A delightful statement above for the atheists and the enemies of the Church. Were they really necessary? Statements such as this one opened the door for the Modernists in their scientific godless pursues, completely undermining the Book of Genesis. Such statements jeopardize the revealed truth that the whole universe is created for man alone, and that without him, physical creation has no meaning at all.

This coming from someone who recognises the v2 anti-popes... :roll-laugh1:

MO is that Pius XII cannot be of being an evolutionist. MO also is that those of you accusing him are attacking the Church... :devil2:

roscoe · « **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:29:18 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Bellator Dei
Quote from: Ladislaus
And he allowed Cardinal Cushing to persecute and to condemn Father Feeney.

This was a key factor in paving the way for Vatican II. If Pope Pius XII would have defended the EENS dogma, it is very doubtful that VII would have actually happened. However, it is well known that the Church had already been infiltrated by the masons and that their agenda was already full steam ahead during the reign of Pius XII.

The Pope DOES defend EENS & Fr Feeney. I suggest reading Humani Generis

Are these paragraphs the whole basis of your assertion?

From Humani Generis:

Quote

14. In theology some want to reduce to a minimum the meaning of dogmas; and to free dogma itself from terminology long established in the Church and from philosophical concepts held by Catholic teachers, to bring about a return in the explanation of Catholic doctrine to the way of speaking used in Holy Scripture and by the Fathers of the Church. They cherish the hope that when dogma is stripped of the elements which they hold to be extrinsic to divine revelation, it will compare advantageously with the dogmatic opinions of those who are separated from the unity of the Church and that in this way they will gradually arrive at a mutual assimilation of Catholic dogma with the tenets of the dissidents.

Quote

27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

..... the necessity of belonging to the one true Church is what EENS( Fr Feeney's crusade) Is....

Yes I do think that this is in response to a letter of Fr Feeney advising the Pope that some rascals in Boston were in heresy re: EENS. :detective:

roscoe · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:34:21 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Cantarella
On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII
With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

A delightful statement above for the atheists and the enemies of the Church. Were they really necessary? Statements such as this one opened the door for the Modernists in their scientific godless pursues, completely undermining the Book of Genesis. Such statements jeopardize the revealed truth that the whole universe is created for man alone, and that without him, physical creation has no meaning at all.

Pius XII, like his successors, seemed to imply that "Creationism" could be reconciled with BigBang+Evolution just by saying that God did the Big Bang and then set in motion everything that would then evolve later on its own. Pius XII was well known to have had an excessive esteem for modern science ... which if you scratch beneath the surface is at its core a scam and a hoax perpetrated by the enemies of God.

I am not a theologian but still know enough to listen to Pius XII before Ladislaus.

:cheers:

Matto · « **Reply #28 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:40:18 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

On evolution:

Quote from: Pope Pius XII
With the same clear and critical look with which the minds examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence whose power set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced thousands of millions of years ago by the Creating Spirit,…called into existence with a gesture of generous love matter bursting with energy. In fact it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step across millions off centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat Lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation while particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies.

Wow! It seems from this quote that he believed in evolution and the big bang. I would expect that from a conciliar pope, but not from him.

roscoe · « **Reply #29 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:48:18 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: roscoe
I also don't agree that he sanctioned the persecution of Fr Feeney. Quite the opposite as he supports him in Humani Generis with the comment on EENS.

Roscoe, the burden of proof is on you. I can see why you would deduce that Pius XII supported EENS (for the single statement in Humani Generis posted above, if that) but why do you specifically say that Pope Pius XII supported Fr. Feeney when to all eyes and appearances, after the whole conflict erupted, he actually supported Jew - friendly Cardinal Cushing, and in doing so, the whole American Masonic hierarchy?

I don't agree that he supported Cushing.... :detective: