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Author Topic: Only two marks of unity in the Church  (Read 2513 times)

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Offline pax

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Only two marks of unity in the Church
« on: December 06, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »
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  • There are only two marks of unity given to the one holy Roman Catholic and apostolic Church:

    1). The Eucharist, and,

    2). the teaching and governance of the Bishop of Rome.

    In order to be in true unity with the Church, a person must exhibit adherence to both of those marks; that is, a Catholic must partake of the same Eucharist as the entire Church does, and a Catholic must be subject to the leghimitate Successor of Blessed Peter.

    A Catholic who loses one of those marks loses the entire Church.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.


    Offline Man of the West

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 11:56:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    There are only two marks of unity given to the one holy Roman Catholic and apostolic Church:


    Okay, I'll make the obvious and obligatory retort (I'm sure pax has already lined up an answer, and I'd like to see his cards).

    I thought it was a clear teaching of the Church that there are four marks of unity. You've already identified them in your post, and the same words also appear in the Nicean Creed which is read at every mass. The Church is:

    1. One. That is to say, the Church is united by common teaching, common sacraments, common liturgy, and common obedience to a single pontiff. (This one classic point seems to include, by itself, the two novel points you've introduced.)

    2. Holy. This Church (and only this Church) was founded by Christ (and only by Christ). Therefore it is biconditionally holy. It is the continuation of Christ's incarnation on earth. It has been granted a divine promise of infallibility, and the grace of God Himself is present in the sacraments.

    3. Catholic, i.e. universal. The Church (potentially) includes everybody, living or dead or not yet born, independent of race or class, or any other natural constraint.

    4. Apostolic. Only those prelates who stand in the line of apostolic succession actually constitute the clergy; the graces, blessings, and fitness to confect the sacraments attach only to them. No divine promise, no guarantee of saving grace, is explicitly given to any other Church or clergy.

    Interestingly, these for marks are collectively logically necessary for a consistent and complete ecclesiology. They are the Four Pillars of Truth. If you remove any one, then the Church becomes subject to diffusion and revision. Given their logical character, it is possible that a Syballine intellect could have articulated something like them even before Christ founded the Church. She would not have been able to point to a True Church, but she would have been able to say "These are the features the True Church will have when it shows up." The exact circuмstances of the Incarnation could not, of course, have been predicted in advance by the human intellect alone. A prophecy would have been required for that, and even the Old Testament prophecies of Christ's advent were not specific in every detail. But this proves that an Incarnation "event" was analytically necessary for salvation. If Christ did not come, then man could not be saved. Therefore Christ's coming would have been expected by every man of primitive faith. He would not know what form it would take, but he knew he would know it when he saw it. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day..." is the corollary of "Let earth receive her King." The Lord's coming was surely to be expected. Those who recognized Him would be saved. Those who did not were damned already.

    The truth of any proposition is proved when it harmonizes with all of the facts, whereas a false proposition quickly runs at varience with them. The four marks of the Church harmonize with everything else we have been given concerning ecclesiology, christology, and natural revelation. Therefore it is just and right that we should accept them.  And if that's not enough, let's not forget that they are in the Creed after all, which does not mention either the Eucharist or the pope.
    Confronting modernity from the depths of the human spirit, in communion with Christ the King.


    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 01:45:59 PM »
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  • Those are the four marks of the Church Herself.

    The OP is on the 2 marks of the unity of the Church.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 01:47:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Where is there a controversy about those two things?


    I am challenging those who reject the authority of the presently reigning Bishop of Rome.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Man of the West

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 02:19:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Those are the four marks of the Church Herself.

    The OP is on the 2 marks of the unity of the Church.


    Alright, I see what you're saying. Unity is one of the four marks of the Church, and unity itself has two marks. However, I've never heard of "the marks of unity," only the marks of the Church herself. Where did you get that from?
    Confronting modernity from the depths of the human spirit, in communion with Christ the King.


    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 02:31:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Man of the West
    Quote from: pax
    Those are the four marks of the Church Herself.

    The OP is on the 2 marks of the unity of the Church.


    Alright, I see what you're saying. Unity is one of the four marks of the Church, and unity itself has two marks. However, I've never heard of "the marks of unity," only the marks of the Church herself. Where did you get that from?


    Satis Cognitum, Pope Leo XIII; Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI; Unam Santam, Pope Boniface VIII.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline GertrudetheGreat

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 06:57:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    There are only two marks of unity given to the one holy Roman Catholic and apostolic Church:

    1). The Eucharist, and,

    2). the teaching and governance of the Bishop of Rome.


    That's false and even heretical.

    The Church's external unity is primarily a unity in the profession of the same faith by all of her members.  A cursory examination of any apologetics work will confirm this.

    The Church's external unity is secondarily a unity of social charity, or communion, which is the sharing in the same sacraments and worship, and the common submission to the authority of the Church (i.e. her hierarchy).

    It is no surprise that one who would attack traditional Catholics would do so by suppressing the necessary unity of faith of the Church, because if it is taken into account it is the Conciliar Church which immediately must take the defensive.  It has no unity of faith whatsoever, not even unity in a false faith.  It is a babel of falsehood and contradiction.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 08:19:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Man of the West
    Quote from: pax
    Those are the four marks of the Church Herself.

    The OP is on the 2 marks of the unity of the Church.


    Alright, I see what you're saying. Unity is one of the four marks of the Church, and unity itself has two marks. However, I've never heard of "the marks of unity," only the marks of the Church herself. Where did you get that from?


    Satis Cognitum, Pope Leo XIII; Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI; Unam Santam, Pope Boniface VIII.


    Note that no quotes were provided by pax to support his claim that there are 2 marks of the unity of the Church.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 08:41:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax


    A Catholic who loses one of those marks loses the entire Church.



    Crazy.

    Catholic: "Gee I lost an entire Church....hmm....I keep trying but I just can't remember where I put it."

    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 10:33:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax


    A Catholic who loses one of those marks loses the entire Church.



    Crazy.

    Catholic: "Gee I lost an entire Church....hmm....I keep trying but I just can't remember where I put it."


    She is over there, straying in the wilderness, and She needs your help to get Her through the wasteland.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 10:44:23 AM »
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  • I think you've been watching too many episodes of the Three Stooges, pax.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 04:43:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I think you've been watching too many episodes of the Three Stooges, pax.


    It is a poor son who deserts his Mother when she is in dire need of him.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline pax

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 04:52:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Pax, "by-the-bye....how is the countess?"


    I do not understand your question.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #13 on: December 08, 2011, 05:18:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: pax



    It is a poor son who deserts his Mother when she is in dire need of him.


    So now pax goes on the attack, implying that Catholics here have deserted the BVM and the Faith.

    Notice how he has not tried to make his case to defend his errors and heresy about the two marks of unity.

    I wonder if he will recant, or if he is too stiff-necked and prideful.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Only two marks of unity in the Church
    « Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 05:20:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I think you've been watching too many episodes of the Three Stooges, pax.


    Maybe he watches them. Maybe not though - some people don't like watching their own work on the screen.