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Author Topic: One pope elected while another was still alive?  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Yeti

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One pope elected while another was still alive?
« on: January 10, 2020, 05:32:11 PM »
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  • Ladislaus mentioned an interesting case in another thread that I wanted to address without derailing the subject of the thread. He said:
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    As for a sanatio in radice of an illegitimate election, I do not buy it.  One of the sedevacantist posters here cited the historical example of a legitimate pope who was hauled off and imprisoned; then another was elected in his place and received "universal adherence".  I do not believe that the subsequent universal adherence could effectively depose the legitimately-reigning pope.  There's a very fine line between this and conceding that the Church can in fact depose popes.

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    This sounds like you are talking about Pope Martin I. I believe his case comes up now and then in this forum. He was arrested by the Byzantine emperor and hauled off to the remote area of the Crimea. The problem is that another pope was elected before he was dead.
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    My recollection is that the records of this event are extremely fragmentary (he was arrested in 653), but I think most Church historians think he left behind a post-dated resignation letter, or instructions to his cardinals that they should consider him to have resigned if he did not return within some length of time, so that the papacy would not be held up by him being in exile. Once the time elapsed that he had instructed them to wait, the cardinals proceeded to an election.
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    I can try to dig up some records on this, but that's my recollection of what I researched about this strange case. But obviously the cardinals could not and did not elect another pope while there was one still living, regardless of where he was.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #1 on: January 10, 2020, 07:42:41 PM »
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  • I forget who it was who cited these case, and he also cited another one.

    Let's say he did not leave any such notice of resignation, but just disappeared.  After some time, the Cardinals PRESUMED him dead, and elected a new pope.  But the actual Pope was still alive.  What would the status of that second Pope be?

    See, I believe that there could be material error or error of fact with regard to the identity of the Pope.  During the so-called Great Western Schism, with the 3 reigning "popes," the Church as a whole was uncertain about who the true pope was.  Despite the uncertainty by the Church, there was still among the three one who was still the legitimate pope.

    This notion of sanatio in radice doesn't make sense to me at all.  I can see arguing that, if the Church recognizes a man universally, then it's a clear SIGN that he was really the pope, but I don't see how recognition can turn a non-pope into a pope.  cuм ex seems to teach the contrary.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #2 on: January 10, 2020, 08:31:28 PM »
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  • I forget who it was who cited these case, and he also cited another one.
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    We're really going to need the name of that other pope too ... But as far as I know, this is the only such case in 2,000 years.
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    Let's say he did not leave any such notice of resignation, but just disappeared.  After some time, the Cardinals PRESUMED him dead, and elected a new pope.  But the actual Pope was still alive.  What would the status of that second Pope be?
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    I believe this case to be impossible. In any case, as far as I know it has never happened. It seems clear that Cardinal Billot certainly didn't think such a thing to be possible.
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    See, I believe that there could be material error or error of fact with regard to the identity of the Pope.  During the so-called Great Western Schism, with the 3 reigning "popes," the Church as a whole was uncertain about who the true pope was.  Despite the uncertainty by the Church, there was still among the three one who was still the legitimate pope.

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    This is fundamentally different from the whole Church believing someone to be the pope who actually isn't. This is more like the whole Church not knowing who the pope is. Then nobody would really have certitude about who the rule of Faith was (the pope's Faith obviously being the rule for everyone else), with the result being that there wasn't a rule of Faith in practical terms, something that happens every time a pope dies. You are positing a situation in which the whole Church is being guided by a rule of Faith which is in fact false. Cardinal Billot does not admit this possibility because it would lead to the whole Church being led into error by following the teaching of Christ about the papacy. I suppose the problem could be mitigated by supposing that the false pope is not a heretic, but only the result of an innocent mistake, but in any case it seems to me that Cardinal Billot didn't think this could happen.
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    This notion of sanatio in radice doesn't make sense to me at all.  I can see arguing that, if the Church recognizes a man universally, then it's a clear SIGN that he was really the pope, but I don't see how recognition can turn a non-pope into a pope.  cuм ex seems to teach the contrary.

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    We are certainly in murky waters here. I should really read more Cardinal Billot and less CathInfo forum. Then I might actually know something about this. :laugh1:
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    I do agree that there does appear to be a difference between what cuм ex says or implies, and what Cardinal Billot says. After the Three Days of Darkness (or pick your restoration event) I'm sure all these kinks will get ironed out, along with a complete set of instructions of what to do next time. I hope I survive until then (by "then" I mean until the restoration, not until the next time we have a pope crisis. I've had enough pope crisis to last me another thousand years).
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 09:28:02 PM »
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  • From the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05598a.htm, St. Pope Eugene I):

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    Eugene I was elected 10 Aug., 654, and died at Rome, 2 June, 657. Because he would not submit to Byzantine dictation in the matter of Monothelitism, St. Martin I was forcibly carried off from Rome (18 June, 653) and kept in exile till his death (September, 655). What happened in Rome after his departure is not well known. For a time the Church was governed in the manner usual in those days during a vacancy of the Holy See, or during the absence of its occupant, viz., by the archpriest, the archdeacon, and the primicerius of the notaries. But after about a year and two months a successor was given to Martin in the person of Eugene (10 Aug., 654). He was a Roman of the first ecclesiastical region of the city, and was the son of Rufinianus. He had been a cleric from his earliest years, and is set down by his biographer as distinguished for his gentleness, sanctity, and generosity. With regard to the circuмstances of his election, it can only be said that if he was forcibly placed on the Chair of Peter by the power of the emperor, in the hope that he would follow the imperial will, these calculations miscarried; and that, if he was elected against the will of the reigning pope in the first instance, Pope Martin subsequently acquiesced in his election (Ep. Martini xvii in P.L., LXXXVII).


    This timeline is confirmed by the Liber Pontificalis.

    Summary:
    Jul 21, 649 - Pope Martin I elected
    Jun 18, 653 - Pope Martin I arrested by agents of emperor Constans and carried off into exile
    May 15, 654 - Arrived in modern day Crimea region
    Aug 10, 654 - Pope Eugene I elected
    Sep 16, 655 - Pope Martin I died (could also be Nov 12, 655)

    As for other possible examples, refer to "Saeculum obscurum", the period where the legitimacy of the popes was sometimes shrouded in scandal.  In particular there was a lot of confusion concerning the succession around John XII, Leo VIII, and Benedict V.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 09:35:03 PM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia also posits the resignation of Pope Martin I but without any evidence.  At that point in time no pope had ever resigned despite other cases of imprisonment and/or exile.  So I don't think resignation can be presumed.  On the other hand, it's possible that the Roman clergy assumed that Pope Martin had been put to death.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 09:44:13 PM »
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  • This is fundamentally different from the whole Church believing someone to be the pope who actually isn't. This is more like the whole Church not knowing who the pope is.

    Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here.  Same thing with the Great Western Schism.  And so I laugh at the people who are insisting that it is a dogmatic fact that George Bergoglio is the pope.  They have no clue about what peaceful acceptance means.  They are (willfully?) blind to the confusion that has engulfed Catholics in our times.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #6 on: January 12, 2020, 04:21:45 PM »
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  • From the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05598a.htm, St. Pope Eugene I):


    This timeline is confirmed by the Liber Pontificalis.

    Summary:
    Jul 21, 649 - Pope Martin I elected
    Jun 18, 653 - Pope Martin I arrested by agents of emperor Constans and carried off into exile
    May 15, 654 - Arrived in modern day Crimea region
    Aug 10, 654 - Pope Eugene I elected
    Sep 16, 655 - Pope Martin I died (could also be Nov 12, 655)

    As for other possible examples, refer to "Saeculum obscurum", the period where the legitimacy of the popes was sometimes shrouded in scandal.  In particular there was a lot of confusion concerning the succession around John XII, Leo VIII, and Benedict V.
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    Thank you, Clemens. This was a very interesting response. Yes, the Liber Pontificalis does show an overlap between those two popes, but I'm not sure if that is supposed to be interpreted as there being two popes at the same time, or merely indicating that St. Martin was still alive when his successor was elected.
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    I don't exactly follow the problem with the election of John XII. Regarding Leo VIII, it appears that he started out as an anti-pope and then later became a true pope. Bizarre career path, I know, but the 10th century was sort of like what you would get if you asked the producer who made the Godfather series to dramatize Cardinal Billot's De Ecclesia into an action movie. Novus Ordo Watch wrote a really interesting article on that wild series of events: https://novusordowatch.org/2019/12/was-pope-john12-deposed/ Relevant is the quote: "To make matters worse, the dates given for their respective reigns overlap so that Leo’s cuts into John’s and Benedict’s into Leo’s. Obviously, these dates cannot be taken as referring to definitely valid pontifical reigns, as there can only be one Pope at a time." Later on he specifies, "But there is one incident that is probably most responsible for giving Leo’s claim to the Papacy any extent of credibility at all: Pope Benedict V appears to have voluntarily resigned the Papacy in favor of Leo when the latter demanded to be recognized as Pope and presumed to depose Benedict."
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    But I do believe it is a matter of faith that there can be only one pope at a time, and I believe the magisterium has taught that a pope retains office until death, resignation, or defection from the Faith.
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    In any case, given the chaos of that time period and the lack of detailed information, I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from these events, especially when there doesn't seem to be a clear contradiction of what I said.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 09:34:50 AM »
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  • On the Pope Martin - Pope Eugene case, I think everyone will agree that if Pope Martin didn't resign, then he was the true pope all along until he died.  The problem is that many people thought that Pope Eugene was the true pope while Pope Martin was still alive.  And to make matters worse, to this day no one is sure if Pope Martin resigned or not.  The motivation for asserting that Pope Martin resigned is to save the idea that the Roman clergy can never be wrong about who the true pope is.  I don't think that can be the correct way of understanding peaceful acceptance.  Only the pope is granted the grace of infallibility.  The pope guarantees the legitimacy of his predecessors.  Otherwise, how could the cadaver synod have ever been accepted as a legitimate act of the pope?  Or how could cuм Ex Apostolatus be a legitimate act of the pope?  i.e. declaring that the acceptance of the cardinals can be overruled by a future pope.  So if a pope ruled that Pope Martin was the true pope after Pope Eugene's election, then that is what it was/is.  It doesn't matter if the Roman clergy accepted Pope Eugene peacefully.  And if the pope doesn't rule on that case, then it is even possible that there was no pope during that time.  Just like the Great Western Schism.  The Liber Pontificalis has decided that there was a pope during that time but it is not infallible.  So to this day, some theologians wonder if the Holy See wasn't vacant for the entire 36 years.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 09:56:54 AM »
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  • Quote
    Let's say he did not leave any such notice of resignation, but just disappeared.  After some time, the Cardinals PRESUMED him dead, and elected a new pope.  But the actual Pope was still alive.  What would the status of that second Pope be?
    I can't cite anything, but doesn't canon law have a "tacit resignation of office" clause?  I mean, if someone just walks away from his duties, it is legally logical to assume he resigned.  (This assumes a proper amount of time was involved).  I would think the 2nd pope would be valid and true, even if the original one showed up one day.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #9 on: January 13, 2020, 10:25:01 AM »
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  • Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here.  Same thing with the Great Western Schism.  And so I laugh at the people who are insisting that it is a dogmatic fact that George Bergoglio is the pope.  They have no clue about what peaceful acceptance means.  They are (willfully?) blind to the confusion that has engulfed Catholics in our times.
    Why don't you enlighten us as to what (you think) the peaceful an universal acceptance means.  And then provide a quote or two to support it.  
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 10:48:47 AM »
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  • Why don't you enlighten us as to what (you think) the peaceful an universal acceptance means.  And then provide a quote or two to support it.  

    We can all agree that this acceptance must be made by actual Catholics.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #11 on: January 13, 2020, 11:10:23 AM »
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  • Why don't you enlighten us as to what (you think) the peaceful an universal acceptance means.  And then provide a quote or two to support it.  
    No, I think you need to prove that peaceful acceptance means the cardinals (Roman clergy) are infallible.  Because that's basically what your definition of peaceful acceptance is.  It is not supported by scripture nor by Apostolic tradition.  If it has any support at all, it is based on logical inferences which while they could be true are not sufficiently proven to be true.  As far as I know, infallibility is only found in the pope and in the Church when it is united to the pope.  If a pope rules that a past pope was a true pope either explicitly or at least tacitly by accepting the acts of that pope as legitimate, then the past pope can be known to be a true pope.  Otherwise, I don't think you can be sure that a claimant was (or is) a true pope.  However, if there truly is peace within the hierarchy concerning the legitimacy of a claimant, then there is certainly no danger in following them.  No one was condemned during the Great Western Schism for following the wrong pope (all of whom were Catholic!).  But since the election of J23, there has been no peace in the hierarchy concerning the pope.  And none of the claimants were Catholic!  This is exceedingly apparent during the "reign" of F1.  So the idea that there is peaceful acceptance at this time is laughable.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #12 on: January 13, 2020, 11:17:55 AM »
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  • We can all agree that this acceptance must be made by actual Catholics.
    Agreed.  Sedevacantist's vote doesn't count.
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #13 on: January 13, 2020, 11:21:51 AM »
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  • Agreed.  Sedevacantist's vote doesn't count.

    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    And hasn't Praeter aligned himself with the schismatic and heretical Conciliar Church?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #14 on: January 13, 2020, 11:23:43 AM »
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  • Isn't your pope the heretic George Bergoglio?