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Author Topic: One pope elected while another was still alive?  (Read 1415 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2020, 11:29:37 AM »
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  • We Cannot Through Servile Obedience Go Along With The Schismatics

     Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre in Écône, of August 2nd, 1976 and published in the French magazine Le Figaro, August 4, 1976




    https://www.fsspx.com/Communicantes/Oct2002/Servile_Obedience.htm


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #16 on: January 13, 2020, 11:33:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    "This Council represents, both in the opinion of the Roman authorities as in our own, A NEW CHURCH which they call themselves the "CONCILIAR CHURCH".

    "We believe that we can affirm, taking into consideration the internal and external critique (review) on Vatican II, that is, in analysing the texts and in studying its circuмstances and its consequences, that the Council, turning its back on Tradition and breaking with the Church of the past, is a SCHISMATIC COUNCIL.


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #17 on: January 13, 2020, 11:36:56 AM »
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  • "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v) 
    Thank you for confirming my point. 

    Quote
    And hasn't Praeter aligned himself with the schismatic and heretical Conciliar Church?

    Praeter is a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #18 on: January 13, 2020, 11:39:14 AM »
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  • Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly.
    from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #19 on: January 13, 2020, 11:41:48 AM »
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  • Either the Conciliar Church retains the essential characteristics of the Catholic Church or it does not.  It it does, then it cannot be called a NEW CHURCH.  If it does not, then if this is still the Catholic Church, then you're saying that the Church has defected.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 11:56:45 AM »
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  • Thank you for confirming my point.

    Praeter is a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

    He thinks he is.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 12:01:01 PM »
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  • Praeter may think that it is possible for a part-time Lutheran minister to be the pope of the Catholic Church but tradition says otherwise.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 12:31:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus, quoted by Yeti
    As for a sanatio in radice of an illegitimate election, I do not buy it.
    In that case, you disagree with the doctrine of Universal Acceptance, as explained by Cardinal Billot. Pope John XXIII's (and then Pope Paul VI's) Universal Acceptance is a sufficient proof that Cardinal Siri did not remain Pope, even if he was elected Pope to begin with. Cardinal Siri must, then, have resigned.

    Fr. Connell, AER, 1965: "The whole Church, teaching and believing, declares and believes this fact, and from this it follows that this fact is infallibly true. We accept it with ecclesiastical – not divine – faith, based on the authority of the infallible Church" in response to the question, "What certainty have we that the reigning Pontiff is actually the primate of the universal Church – that is, that he became a member of the Church through valid baptism, and that he was validly elected Pope?"

    Fr. Boulet, SSPX, 2004: " the most important reason why we must discard the "Pope Siri" theory is the fundamental principle that a peaceful acceptance of a pope by the Universal Church is the infallible sign and effect of a valid election. All theologians agree on that point. Cardinal Billot says: "God may allow that a vacancy of the Apostolic See last for a while. He may also permit that some doubt be risen about the legitimacy of such or such election. However, God will never allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully.  Thus, as long as a pope is accepted by the Church, and united with her like the head is united to the body, one can no longer raise any doubt about a possible defective election"

    Supposing someone says Pope Pius XII, or Pope Pius IX, or anyone else, never became Pope, because there was some other alleged secret Papal claimant somewhere, does their Papacy really become doubtful because of that? Most certainly not, otherwise it is goodbye to dogmas like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Mother of God. Papacies cannot be denied or doubted, as Cardinal Billot explains, once Universal Acceptance is verified.

    As for cuм Ex, it is speaking about the Cardinals. That is plain from the text itself, and also from Lateran V, which decreed similarly on simony. As Cardinal Billot in the case of Pope Alexander VI (who was accused of both heresy and simony), universal adherence proved he was not a heretic, and any fault he or others committed was healed in the root at the moment of such acceptance. Universal acceptance can be either a cause of convalidation or an effect of a valid election. What is certain is that, after UA, no doubt can be raised. This explanation is also given by Rev. Father Dom Prosper Gueranger, “The inevitable play of human passions, interfering in the election of the Vicar of Christ, may perchance for a while render uncertain the transmission of spiritual power. But when it is proved that the Church, still holding, or once more put in possession of, her liberty, acknowledges in the person of a certain Pope, until then doubtful, the true Sovereign Pontiff, this her very recognition is a proof that, from that moment at least, the occupant of the Apostolic See is as such invested by God himself.” (Abbot Guéranger, O.S.B., The Liturgical Year , Vol XII, pg. 188)" 

    Re: Pope St. Martin I. I agree with the CE's explanation: "What happened in Rome after his departure is not well known. For a time the Church was governed in the manner usual in those days during a vacancy of the Holy See, or during the absence of its occupant, viz., by the archpriest, the archdeacon, and the primicerius of the notaries. But after about a year and two months a successor was given to Martin in the person of Eugene (10 Aug., 654).". Anyway, a doctrine is not to be revised based on a doubtful historical point. Only one thing could support Bene-Vacantism, or Siri-Vacantism, or such similar theories; if the person who is claimed to still be Pope, maintained his claim to remaining Pope and not having resigned, refused to recognize the opposing claimant, and held a certain section of the Church in obedience. This was the case, for e.g. during the Great Western Schism. And once Pope Martin V received UA, the GWS came to an end.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 12:31:53 PM »
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  • From these rough notions we can deduce the approximate definitions of the two churches:

    * The Catholic Church is the society of the baptised who want to save their souls in professing the Catholic faith, in practising the same Catholic worship and in following the same pastors, successors of the Apostles.

    * The conciliar church is the society of the baptised who follow the directives of the current Popes and bishops, in espousing more or less consciously the intention to bring about the unity of the human race, and in practise accepting the decisions of the Council, following the new liturgy and submitting to the new Code of Canon law.
    If this be so, we have two churches who have the same heads and most of the same members,


    If there is one visible head and one hierarchy over two distinct Churches, and if both Churches have most of the same members, how can a Catholic separate from communion with the Conciliar Church without at the same time separating from communion with the Catholic Church?  


    Quote
    The material cause: These are the persons united to each other within the society. We will say that in the case of the Catholic Church, as in the conciliar church, these are the baptised.

    — The efficient cause is the head of the society: for the Catholic Church, Our Lord Jesus Christ, it’s founder, and the Popes who are his vicars; and for the conciliar church, the Popes of the Council, therefore the same Popes; in such a way that the same hierarchy seems to govern the two Churches.

    If the head and hierarchy (efficient cause) are the same, and the members (material cause) are mostly the same and completely intermingled, separating from communion with the Conciliar Church would necessarily result in schism from the Catholic Church.

    The error in the equation is the idea that the Conciliar Church is a separate and distinct Church from the Catholic Church.  

    The simplest explanation is that the Church was infiltrated by her enemies, who are subverting it from within.  The crisis is the result of a battle of ideas within the walls of the one Church by two opposing forces, with a majority of the laity and clergy are caught somewhere in the middle.  
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 12:36:57 PM »
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  • Either the Conciliar Church retains the essential characteristics of the Catholic Church or it does not.  It it does, then it cannot be called a NEW CHURCH.  If it does not, then if this is still the Catholic Church, then you're saying that the Church has defected.
    Ladislaus, where is the Church with four marks?  



    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #25 on: January 13, 2020, 12:41:06 PM »
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  • If there is one visible head and one hierarchy over two distinct Churches, and if both Churches have most of the same members, how can a Catholic separate from communion with the Conciliar Church without at the same time separating from communion with the Catholic Church?  


    If the head and hierarchy (efficient cause) are the same, and the members (material cause) are mostly the same and completely intermingled, separating from communion with the Conciliar Church would necessarily result in schism from the Catholic Church.

    The error in the equation is the idea that the Conciliar Church is a separate and distinct Church from the Catholic Church.  

    The simplest explanation is that the Church was infiltrated by her enemies, who are subverting it from within.  The crisis is the result of a battle of ideas within the walls of the one Church by two opposing forces, with a majority of the laity and clergy are caught somewhere in the middle.  

    I agree that there this violates the principle of non-contradiction.  It can only ESSENTIALLY (or FORMALLY) be either one OR the other, but not both at the same time.  An animal cannot be both a horse and a pig at the same time.  It is either one or the other.  But a horse can pick up a parasite and be infected and sick.  It remains, essentially, a horse.  Now I hold that this Conciliar Church is in fact a new religion, but that it's not at the same time the Catholic Church.  So if I saw a horse in a stall, then the next day in its place there was a pig in the same stall, I would not say that it's still a horse just because it's in the same place.  It's clearly a pig now; my conclusion must be that the one thing was swapped out for and replaced by the other.


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #26 on: January 13, 2020, 12:56:59 PM »
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  • I agree that there this violates the principle of non-contradiction.  It can only ESSENTIALLY (or FORMALLY) be either one OR the other, but not both at the same time.  An animal cannot be both a horse and a pig at the same time.  It is either one or the other.  But a horse can pick up a parasite and be infected and sick.  It remains, essentially, a horse.  

    The two Church theory is equivalent to saying you can have two different animals in one body (material cause), with the same visible head/brain and nervous system (efficient cause).  Not possible.


    Quote
    Now I hold that this Conciliar Church is in fact a new religion, but that it's not at the same time the Catholic Church.  

    The problem is twofold.  First, you exaggerated the errors and misleading ambiguities by making them into a new religion.   All the dogmas are still on the books, and not a single error has been proposed as de fide.  Therefore, the faith is still "without spot or wrinkle."  2) If the same institution became a new Church the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church.
    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #27 on: January 13, 2020, 01:02:34 PM »
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  • The two Church theory is equivalent to saying you can have two different animals in one body (material cause), with the same visible head and nervous system (efficient cause).  No possible.


    The problem is twofold.  First, you exaggerated the errors and misleading ambiguities by making them into a new religion.   All the dogmas are still on the books, and not a single error has been proposed as de fide.  Therefore, the faith is still "without spot or wrinkle."  2) If the same institution became a new Church the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church.

    I think this ended up in the wrong thread.  Well, I disagree.  So did +Lefebvre and +Tissier.  Whether or not anything has been proposed de fide, this is NOT a question of a few isolated errors.  We have a brand new system of theology rooted in subjectivism along with a brand new form of public worship.  This clearly looks like a pig, oinks like a pig, smells like a pig.  It barely resembles the Catholic Church of old.  It's absurd to try to reduce this change to some accidents; there's been a substantial change.  If this were the matter only of some ambiguities and a few isolated errors here or there, there would never have been a Traditional movement.  It's just got a facade of the old Church, as if someone took a pig, painted it brown, and put some horse-shoes on it.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #28 on: January 13, 2020, 01:20:27 PM »
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  • If there is one visible head and one hierarchy over two distinct Churches, and if both Churches have most of the same members, how can a Catholic separate from communion with the Conciliar Church without at the same time separating from communion with the Catholic Church? 
    What about this......The one visible head and one hierarchy are only over the Catholic Church, the other church is only a masquerade and is not the Church at all, so why can it not be said that they are over the Church, and also over the NO Club of V2, also called the conciliar church?




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Yeti

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    Re: One pope elected while another was still alive?
    « Reply #29 on: January 13, 2020, 03:30:17 PM »
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  • On the Pope Martin - Pope Eugene case, I think everyone will agree that if Pope Martin didn't resign, then he was the true pope all along until he died.  The problem is that many people thought that Pope Eugene was the true pope while Pope Martin was still alive.  And to make matters worse, to this day no one is sure if Pope Martin resigned or not.  The motivation for asserting that Pope Martin resigned is to save the idea that the Roman clergy can never be wrong about who the true pope is.  I don't think that can be the correct way of understanding peaceful acceptance.  Only the pope is granted the grace of infallibility.  The pope guarantees the legitimacy of his predecessors.  Otherwise, how could the cadaver synod have ever been accepted as a legitimate act of the pope?  Or how could cuм Ex Apostolatus be a legitimate act of the pope?  i.e. declaring that the acceptance of the cardinals can be overruled by a future pope.  So if a pope ruled that Pope Martin was the true pope after Pope Eugene's election, then that is what it was/is.  It doesn't matter if the Roman clergy accepted Pope Eugene peacefully.  And if the pope doesn't rule on that case, then it is even possible that there was no pope during that time.  Just like the Great Western Schism.  The Liber Pontificalis has decided that there was a pope during that time but it is not infallible.  So to this day, some theologians wonder if the Holy See wasn't vacant for the entire 36 years.
    .
    Bringing this back around to the original topic ... so I guess we don't know whether Pope St. Martin I resigned (sorry, I missed the fact that he is a saint and a martyr. I should call him St. Martin I). I am content to say that, since we don't know what happened after he was taken into captivity, there is no proof either way that another pope was elected while he was alive, which I maintain is impossible anyway.
    .
    As far as the other popes during the saeculum obscurum, I thought the Novus Ordo Watch article I presented gave a fairly coherent and plausible account and analysis of those turbulent events that didn't involve any funny business like automatically presumed resignations or two popes at the same time.