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“Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily
« on: January 21, 2025, 08:10:09 AM »
“Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily. – Padre Peregrino

Many Catholics casually say the following line to ex-Catholics in order to get them back into a Church building:  “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” It sounds welcoming, but it’s theologically wrong.

This is because the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and the Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Popes all taught:  A bad Catholic never ceases to be a Catholic, provided his failure be not faith-based but morality-based (and also provided those moral failures be not excommunicable.)  On the other hand, a baptized person who has purposely rejected even one tenet of the traditional Catholic faith is a heretic who is no longer Catholic.  Furthermore, a baptized person who has purposely rejected Jesus Christ as the only Savior of the world is now an apostate and even farther outside the Church.

A heretic maintains the character of baptism, but not the grace of baptism. This is the key distinction.

Of course, this is not to say ex-Catholics are pre-destined to hell. Rather, you should pray and fast and share the faith with them in order to help them chart out a return to the Catholic Church. They can indeed regain the grace of baptism by a single confession. At that point, the character of baptism is immediately joined to the grace of baptism, and they are in the Catholic Church again.

However, the rules of the Church before Vatican II held that public heretics or apostates had to publicly renounce their errors in addition to a good confession in order to return to the Church. Even if you don’t believe this anymore, you should agree that a statement of return to at least one’s friends and family is a good idea, especially if the initial heresy or apostasy caused scandal. Their statement of return to the Catholic Church should probably precede their confession, unless it’s an emergency.

If a Catholic leaves the Church for a Protestant community (or worships a Pachamama statue) that person is no longer a Catholic. That is the teaching of the Apostles, the Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas and all the old school Popes.  Because a heretic or an apostate relinquishes (by his own free-will) his membership in the Catholic Church, he obviously relinquishes any hierarchical role he had up to that point, too.  This is true for anyone who espouses manifest, obstinate heresy, but not occult heresy.

What is the difference?  Occult heresy means you privately doubt a tenet of the faith but don’t broadcast it.  In this case, doubt may be a sin, but it doesn’t leave you outside the Church.  Also, keep in mind that Cardinal Newman wrote:  “A thousand difficulties does not equal one doubt.”

In other words, what feels like doubt in these dark times may not be you doubting Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith with full consent, but simply a temptation.  If such is the case, don’t beat yourself up.  Many great saints like St. Therese of Lisieux and Padre Pio constantly had to make acts of faith to stave off the great darkness of their time (which is an even greater darkness in our time.)  If you’re doing your best to be a traditional Catholic, I guarantee you are neither a heretic nor apostate.  Even if you have an accidental secret heresy (occult heresy) rest assured:  You are still in the Catholic Church.

You see, if you’re not purposely teaching against the traditional faith, you are probably not committing any sin of doubt, heresy or apostasy.  This is true, even if your feelings or temptations feel out of control at one time or another during the week or month or whatever.  Just make acts of faith if you feel temptations against faith.  Temptations are not consent.  And no consent means no sin.

But today there are real enemies of the Church from within our own Church buildings (key word here being buildings, not Church) who are denying the Catholic faith left and right nearly every week.  St. Alphonsus Liguori and St. Francis De Sales and St. Robert Bellarmine all teach that a heretic ceases completely to be a member of the hierarchy and a member of the Catholic Church.  This includes you-know-who, because homeboy ain’t Catholic.

At this point, many people in in Trad Inc will say “Ahh, yes, Fr. Nix, that is true that heretics remove themselves from the Catholic Church.  But you and your band of odd extremists who read your website don’t have the authority to declare someone a heretic without a formal canonical trial.”

They are wrong in this according to many saints. While it’s true we can’t physically remove someone from an important seat of teaching, an orthodox Catholic most certainly can recognize a manifest and obstinate heretic has already removed himself from the Catholic Church.  Even more so for a pachamama-worshipping apostate, regardless of the position he claims to have.

I proved this by quoting many old-school saints in probably the most under-read of all my articles on this titled He Is To Be Accused By His Subjects.  I admittedly took a huge part of that article from Fr. Paul Kramer who brilliantly shows from the saints that any blue-collar Catholic can recognize a heretic or apostate has officially left the Church even without an official decree from a group of men in red. That article shows you can indeed recognize a heretic or apostate who has already removed himself by his own actions.

So while many folks in the “New Evangelization” will explain (with many of them maintaining a heart in a very good place, by the way) to once-baptized Catholics (who may claim to be a Goth or Mormon or Atheist now) that he or she is “still Catholic because you were baptized Catholic…” well, they are very wrong according to the classic teaching of the Catholic Church.  In fact, you don’t even have to know your theology to know this.  The simple fact God respects free-will should lead you to see that an “ex-Catholic” is just that by his very own volition:  An ex-Catholic.

In short, if someone says by his words or even his doctrine, “I’m not Catholic anymore,” God believes him.  And so do I.

Of course, we don’t condemn those people who left the Catholic Church.  We should evangelize and sacrifice for them with all our hearts.  Jesus Christ wants all those Goths, Mormons, Atheists, heretics and apostates back into His Catholic Church.  This is because God truly wills all to be saved.  But sometimes helping people see the truth that they have indeed already left the Catholic Church is exactly the fire they need under their tail to make their way back to the True Catholic Church.




Offline Ladislaus

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Re: “Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2025, 08:27:21 AM »
So, I know that Stubborn here constantly pushed this position and for the longest time I told him that no theologian ever held that position.  I was wrong.  Msgr. Fenton did a historical survey of these and found one theologian in the 19th century, but the position pretty much died with him ... AND Pius XII pretty much put the nail in its coffin with Mystici Corporis, where he affirms the position that heresy and schism sever from the Church.

Now, one might still argue manifest vs. occult, and ipso facto or based on some declaration (i.e. Bellarmine vs. Cajetan), etc.  But there's absolutely no one out there who holds "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." -- despite it having been revived by Father Wathen and his zealous followers (like Stubborn).  They'd be much better off arguing what type of heresy removes one from membership in the Church and what it takes to become that kind of heretic.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: “Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2025, 08:47:53 AM »
Quote
Now, one might still argue manifest vs. occult, and ipso facto or based on some declaration (i.e. Bellarmine vs. Cajetan), etc.  But there's absolutely no one out there who holds "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." -- despite it having been revived by Father Wathen and his zealous followers (like Stubborn).  They'd be much better off arguing what type of heresy removes one from membership in the Church and what it takes to become that kind of heretic.
Yeah, I would love to interview Fr Wathen (RIP) and get his complete thoughts on the matter.  Because his views in books seemed to be...unfinished.  He certainly called all the V2 popes heretics, yet then argued that they were baptized and still members of the Church.

He was definitely arguing against the rabid dogmatic Sedes of his day; that was his purpose in even bringing up the topic.  He thought the idea of Aunt Sally waking up and declaring someone 'not in office anymore' as ludicrous and anti-canon law.

Had he spent more time explaining his view, I suspect he would've come to the conclusion of manifest vs occult heresy...which is similar to Fr Chazalism/sede-impoundism...since anyone who is guilty of occult heresy (i.e. private/personal heresy) is in mortal sin and loses their spiritual authority in a number of ways, as Canon Law specifies.  And technically, until the Church declares someone as a heretic, then they are occult (and not manifest).

Ultimately, all roads lead to a 'dead end' in this crisis, even if some roads go further and explain more than others.  Until Christ restores his Church, and fixes the broken roads.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: “Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2025, 09:25:01 AM »
Yeah, I would love to interview Fr Wathen (RIP) and get his complete thoughts on the matter.  Because his views in books seemed to be...unfinished.  He certainly called all the V2 popes heretics, yet then argued that they were baptized and still members of the Church.

He was definitely arguing against the rabid dogmatic Sedes of his day; that was his purpose in even bringing up the topic.  He thought the idea of Aunt Sally waking up and declaring someone 'not in office anymore' as ludicrous and anti-canon law.

Had he spent more time explaining his view, I suspect he would've come to the conclusion of manifest vs occult heresy...which is similar to Fr Chazalism/sede-impoundism...since anyone who is guilty of occult heresy (i.e. private/personal heresy) is in mortal sin and loses their spiritual authority in a number of ways, as Canon Law specifies.  And technically, until the Church declares someone as a heretic, then they are occult (and not manifest).

Ultimately, all roads lead to a 'dead end' in this crisis, even if some roads go further and explain more than others.  Until Christ restores his Church, and fixes the broken roads.

Right ... I agree that we were missing some nuances in his thinking (and perhaps Stubborn is also).  That was certainly the case with Archbishop Lefebvre where the nuance was lost and his followers morphed.

So Archbishop Lefebvre's position (apart from that unfortunately stint in the early 1980s) was never dogmatic-anti-SV, and if you read what he said, for him it was just because he wasn't totally sure.  In fact, the SSPX rhetoric at the time was epitomized by Fr. Schmidberger's citation of the canonical principle melior est conditio possidentis ... which essentially means that we're giving them the benefit of the doubt, i.e. until the Church intervenes we're going to act like they might be or likely are legitimate popes.  After the Archbishop passed away, though, this gradually morphed into a quasi-dogmatic R&R that +Lefebvre never held (again, except in the early 1980s perhaps). 

So, as you said, I imagine we're missing some nuances in Father Wathen's thinking, and could very well have been moving along the lines of where Fr. Chazal ended up, just hadn't been able to articulate it.  It does sometimes happen where there's something in your mind, but where at least for a while you can't quite put it into words, where you can't find the right distinction to explain it.

I just don't think that the "Once Catholic, always Catholic" is the least bit viable ... especially after Mystici Corporis killed it.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: “Once a Catholic Always a Catholic”? Not Necessarily
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2025, 09:43:56 AM »
Quote
So, as you said, I imagine we're missing some nuances in Father Wathen's thinking, and could very well have been moving along the lines of where Fr. Chazal ended up, just hadn't been able to articulate it.  It does sometimes happen where there's something in your mind, but where at least for a while you can't quite put it into words, where you can't find the right distinction to explain it.
His main issue was certain dogmatic Sede chapels who refused sacraments to non-Sede/non-BOD laity, who then complained to him and asked what to do.  99% of the time, when he mentioned Sedevacantism, his advice was "You don't have to go to masses where the clergy forces you to accept their views, in order to receive the Sacraments."  Then, of course, he had discourses with the Diamond Bros, who then turned around and called him guilty of numerous heresies. 

I don't think he ever had any comments/criticisms of non-dogmatic Sedevacantism.  Except, it was his opinion that only the Church can decide the matter.