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Author Topic: On the Chirch and the gαys  (Read 1823 times)

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Offline Pelly

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On the Chirch and the gαys
« on: January 09, 2013, 10:44:34 AM »
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  • This book claims that the Church lowered its' standards on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity. But does that mean that the NO Church supports the gαy agenda? I've read allegations about it, though a NO Cardinal is very conservative and even the "Pope" has spoken against gαy marriage and said that the Church will never change its' position in favour of it. There is dissent in the NO Church, and a group asked the White House to deem the NO Chruch as a hate group.
    These are my additional questions: where is the border line between gαy agenda and unjust discrimination? How can ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity be eliminated? Since I've heard that it's a tendency, as in humans there is a tendency to sin since the Fall. But since it's a sinful tendency (the Seven Cardinal Sins), I think that we need to fight it. Hard task, doesn't it?
    There was a man (though NO), who left the gαy lifestyle. But it is possible to eliminate it completely?
    EDIT: I wish that the titles could be edited too. Another typo - again!


    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 02:06:39 PM »
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  • the NO had ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ seminaries in the 70's complete with their own books for teaching it, here in the USA.  Even though the pope has words against it, his fruits tell it all!  The church shook hands with the Masonic's Marxists in the 50's and even sooner than that.  We had infiltration of communists: AA-1029 book, from TAN.  The church of the NO accepts the perverts.  We have clergy that are and look at all the sodomy and the poor victims.  What has been done for that in the NO, nothing.


    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 04:43:35 AM »
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  • @songbird Do you mean that the NO accepted gαys into seminaries? It's maybe dissent, which is very prevailing in the NO Church. But you meant that the Church doesn't support the gαy agenda? I know about the Communist infiltration, plus I thik that in the USA, the 1962 plan is very progressed, since bishops close churches.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 05:37:36 AM »
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  • ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Infiltration Of The Catholic Clergy - under 4 minutes long

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 10:41:09 PM »
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  • I meant that the Church of the N.O. DOES accept ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.  It is not supposed to but it does.  You may hear flagrant words but their fruits are the opposite.  N.O. is corrupt!  Read Matthew 24 and then read Chapter 12 of Daniel, the continual sacrifice, the Precious Blood will come to an end.  We are very close. That maybe off track, but when you have infiltration, secret society take over, these evil people do everything that is evil and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is just one.  Taking away the Precious Blood is the worst thing that can ever happen to us.  


    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 03:38:56 AM »
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  • But it doesn't support the gαy agenda, like, it exhorted against the legalization of gαy marriage. It's still pro life, too. There's dissenter groups in the NO Church like Catholics for a Free Choice. (After what I read from  the alleged text of the Third Secret and the Prophecy of the Weeks, it might be the "New Mass")
    I think that dissent and the disorientiation is a fruit of the NO.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 06:45:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelly
    But it doesn't support the gαy agenda, like, it exhorted against the legalization of gαy marriage. It's still pro life, too. There's dissenter groups in the NO Church like Catholics for a Free Choice. (After what I read from  the alleged text of the Third Secret and the Prophecy of the Weeks, it might be the "New Mass")
    I think that dissent and the disorientiation is a fruit of the NO.


    Yes, it does support the gαy agenda a number of ways. Perhaps the most obvious is by not unequivocally and absolutely publicly condemning it. No battle against it is being fought or even considered. The NO will pretty much only offer some gentle and vague statement against it in some Hierarchical periodical or speech which leaves most of the population unsure of the Church's position, this is about the closest to public condemnation there is.

    But it goes much deeper than that, suffice to say that even if the the NO, modernist to it's core,  came out and tried to actually do battle against the gαy agenda, it would certainly, lose, since it would be ultimately only fighting itself.  

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 07:51:46 AM »
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  • Do you mean that the NO Church leaves the laity unsure about what to do with the gαy agenda?
    "Crd." Biffi holds himself closely to the Church teaching and condemns sodomy and warned that the NO Church will be persecuted by pro-gαy enemies. The CL, though NO, boycotted a brand of beer due to its' support of a gαy parade, which was exceeedingly blasphemious. Lady Gaga, a singer praised by the LGBT community, though she is Catholic, said that the Pope is irrevelant.
    But there are "cardinals" that want to change the Church position, like Crd. Schönborn.
    Not all from the NO are evil. Like, I didn't consume meat on Fridays. The NO still has a character against the gαy agenda, but NO has dissent, which weakens the Church, making it to collapse. Like, liturgical abuses like performing Mass with Kool-Aid (glad that Hungary is spared). And when I talk about dissent, I could mean people in the Church who reject Julia Kim because they follow the Church and the ones who support Julia Kim, or those who encourages the Church accessiblity options for celiacs because they are in-canon and the people who use gluten-free hosts or wants the Church to legalise them. This is dissent, which is the biggest problem of the Church nowadays.


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 08:37:29 AM »
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  • Well, as I said, it goes so much deeper than the amount of space here could possibly touch on.

    But for example, banning beer is futile and is not confronting the issue, nor is it defending the virtue of chastity and purity - or even common decency, nor is it condemning the sin of sodomy. I could go on and on here. All it is doing is showing contempt towards queers and creates a situation that ultimately displays the weakness of the cardinal - hence the NO church - to do anything about it.

    The NO, being the cause, will not truly do battle against itself unless it wants to defeat itself, which means in order to dupe the unknowing, it occasionally will display the appearance of "being against" the abomination, but the surrender happens before they ever even approach the battle field.

    This is why whenever there is a good member (or two?) of the NO clergy who speaks up and actually tries to stop the abomination, they are shunted off into exile by their own superior(s) (like Fr. Michael Rodriguez. ) Fr. Rodriguez is only one of 10s of 1000s of clergy who met with slander and exile - anyone who truly preaches against contraception and homos will meet the same fate - that is how the NO has worked since it began.  


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Robin

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    « Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 09:37:55 AM »
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  • The leaders~ Bishops, need to lead. They need to step up while there is still time. Cardinal Dolan writes a letter telling Gov Cuomo he is disappointed in his pro gαy, pro abortion agenda....with all due respect that letter should have informed the governor NOT to present himself for Holy Communion until he supports the same agenda as his faith teaches. Cuomo's personal life is no better living with another woman while separated from his wife. This needs to happen all over the country. They need to choose their faith or the politics.

    No matter what they say....it is my personal opinion but I cannot force it on anyone in the public arena....I say none of them have had ANY problem forcing the pro gαy pro death agenda on Catholics in the public arena....and we should not be subjected to it on any level. Sadly, until the leadership of NO Church steps up and does the right thing the NO Church will continue to lose credibility and members...sadly a House divided against itself will collapse...and those are the words of Christ the King.

    I am tired of beer summits, gourmet cook offs, Al Smith dinners with Catholic leadership attending inviting dirt bag politicians who support the destruction of family and human life . Clergy who do so  :boxer: are a black eye and a disgrace to the faith. Under these circuмstances alone I would say no re-union with Rome if not for other reasons. The Bishops are in open disobedience to Christs' teaching and that is very dangerous to the souls of their flocks.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 10:15:28 AM »
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  • Before believing that the Novus Ordo, or Conciliar, church "officially" teaches that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is sinful or wrong, or disordered, etc., people need to know what is actually going on in that satanic cult.

    While not generally published in English language periodicals or websites and the "conservative" Catholic press refuses to make it known, Novus Ordo prelates are publicly proclaiming that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions should not be thought to be evil or wrong in any way.  In fact, the Novus Ordo community, while not proclaiming the "joys of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity" from the housetops, is most definitely supporting and encouraging the perversion.

    Consider the following items published by a Novus Ordo ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ organization, New Ways Ministry:

    Quote
    Italian Bishop States His Support for Civil Unions for Lesbian and gαy Couples

    December 20, 2012

    An Italian bishop has stated his support for civil unions, though not for marriage, for same-gender couples.

    Bishop Giuseppe Fiorini Morosini

    gαyStarNews.com reported that Bishop Giuseppe Fiorini Morosini, of the Locri-Gerace diocese in Calabria (the southernmost part of Italy), has written a letter to his churches where he stated:

    “same-sex couples should have their civil rights recognized.”

    He also added:

    “However, same-sex couples are not families. We can not give them the right to a regular marriage. . . .A marriage is a union between a man and a woman, but every couple should have civil rights.”

    While this may not sound like earth-shaking news, it is interesting to note that over the past year, we have seen a small trend among some Catholic leaders (and conservative political leaders, too) to support civil unions as an alternative to marriage.

    For example, the diocese of Manchester, New Hampshire, ended up supporting a bill in the state legislature which would have instituted civil unions as an alternative to marriage. Similarly, Archbishop Vincent Nichols of Westminster (London), England stated his support for civl unions at the end of 2011. In May of this year, Cardinal Rainer Maria Woelki of Berlin, Germany, said that he thought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ and heterosɛҳuąƖ couples should be treated similarly by the church.

    More importantly, Bishop Morosini’s comments differ markedly from an Archdiocese of Milan spokesperson who, in July, said that establishing a civil union registry in that Italian city would lead to polygamy.

    No, the earth isn’t shaking because of Bishop Morosini’s comments, but taken in the context of these previous statements from other church leaders, I think we are witnessing the beginning of some kind of shift.

    –Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry

    Source:  http://newwaysministryblog.wordpress.com/tag/berlin/


    And this concerning a cardinal archbishop:

    Quote
    Cardinal Calls for Equality of HeterosɛҳuąƖ and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Relationships

    So far I’ve only seen one news report in English about this item, but there are several in German that are floating around the web. It is too good not to report, even though the information is rather sparse.

    Berlin’s Cardinal Rainer Maria Woelki told a major Catholic conference in Germany that relationships of same-gender couples should be treated equally with heterosɛҳuąƖ couples. An article in The Local, an English news source in Germany reports:

    “He told a crowd on Thursday that the church should view long-term, faithful ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ relationships as they do heterosɛҳuąƖ ones.

    ” ‘When two ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs take responsibility for one another, if they deal with each other in a faithful and long-term way, then you have to see it in the same way as heterosɛҳuąƖ relationships,’ Woelki told an astonished crowd, according to a story in the Tagesspiegel newspaper.

    “Woekli acknowledged that the church saw the relationship between a man and a woman as the basis for creation, but added that it was time to think further about the church’s attitude toward same sex relationships.”

    Speaking at the 98th Katholikentag (Catholic), a conference of 60,000 Catholics in Mannheim, Woelki joins a growing chorus of episcopal voices who are calling for change in the hierarchy’s traditionally absolutist refusal to acknowledge the moral goodness of lesbian and gαy relationships.

    Last December, London’s Archbishop Vincent Nichols made headlines by supporting civil partnerships for lesbian and gαy couples in the U.K. That same month, Fr. Frank Brennan, a Jesuit legal scholar in Australia, also called for similar recognition of same-sex relationships. In January, Bishop Paolo Urso of Ragusa, Italy, also called for recognition of civil partnerships in his country.

    March of 2012 saw an explosion of questioning from prelates of the hierarchy’s ban on marriage equality. At New Ways Ministry’s Seventh National Symposium,Bishop Geoffrey Robinson of Australia called for a total re-examination of Catholic sɛҳuąƖ ethics to allow for, among other things, moral approval of same-sex relationships. The Diocese of Manchester, New Hampshire, supported a bill that would legalize civil unions (albeit as a stopgap measure to prevent marriage equality). Bishop Richard Malone of Portland, Maine, announced that the diocese would not take an active role in opposing the state’s upcoming referendum on marriage equality, as it had in 2009. In Italy, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini of Milan stated in his book, Credere e Cognoscere (Faith and Understanding), that “I do not agree with the positions of those in the Church who takes issue with civil unions.” You can read excerpts, in Italian, from the book here. An English translation of a different set of excerpts, thanks to the Queering the Church blog, can be found here.

    While opposition to marriage equality from the hierarchy, especially in the United States, is still massive and strong, it is significant that these recent statements are all developing a similar theme of at least some recognition of the intrinsic value of lesbian and gαy relationships, as well as the need for civil protection of them. May this trend continue and grow.

    –Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry

    Source:  http://newwaysministryblog.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/cardinal-calls-for-equality-of-heterosɛҳuąƖ-and-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ-relationships/


    Access the websites to see the numerous links embedded in the articles to other news stories about the changing attitudes in the Novus Ordo establishment concerning ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and sodomy.

    While the Catholic Church has most definite and clear teachings about ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and sodomy, the Novus Ordo church is rapidly changing how it views these deadly sins.


    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 10:18:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Robin
    The leaders~ Bishops, need to lead. They need to step up while there is still time.


    They are leading!  They are leading the Novus Ordo straight into hell!  That's the point.

    Please read my previous post.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 11:13:49 AM »
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  • "Catholics for a Free Choice" is a Ford Foundation front group and not a Catholic group.  It's a dummy group with no known members but a leader who makes political statements (always favoring the left and always favoring abortion).

    It's a group in name only for the sole purpose of deceiving people into thinking that Catholics are divided on this issue.

    Offline Nadir

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    « Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 03:28:14 PM »
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  • To add the TKGS" collection:
    http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/04/07/relationships-not-acts-an-emerging-catholic-orthodoxy/

    Relationships, Not Acts: An Emerging Catholic Orthodoxy?
    April 7, 2012
    By Terence Weldon

    Recent statements by Cardinals Martini and Schonborn, and Bishop Geoffrey Robinson, have highlighted an important shift in Catholic thinking on homoerotic and other sɛҳuąƖ ethics. Outside the isolation of the Vatican, there has been an important shift of emphasis from an exclusive concern with genital acts, to consideration of the quality of the relationships – and recognition of their value.

    In recent weeks, I have reported three events that signal the beginning of a remarkable shift in thinking on sɛҳuąƖ ethics by some Catholic bishops. First, came Bishop Geoffrey Robinson’s call for a fundamental rethink of the whole of sɛҳuąƖ doctrine, the first bishop to acknowledge publicly that the entire structure is fundamentally flawed. Next, came reports of Cardinal Martini’s book, and his recognition of some value in same-sex relationships. Then, the one that has drawn the strongest public reaction, came the reports that Cardinal Christoph Schonborn of Vienna together with his fellow Austrian bishops had ratified the election of an openly gαy man to a Vienna parish council. As the news spread that the election will stand, the reaction at some  conservative sites has been predictably shocked. They see it as a break with established Catholic teaching and tradition, but it is in fact the exact opposite – a return to an ancient, long-standing tradition in Catholic teaching and practice of respect for same – sex unions and intimate friendships, a respect that some modern bishops are now beginning to rediscover, honour and articulate themselves.  Even in the modern church, this is not in fact new, except in the ranks of bishops, who are now simply beginning to catch up with the rest of the Church.
     
    To understand this, I offer first a brief summary of the historic shifts, and then outline how outside the Vatican and the bishops’ dicasteries, the real church has already changed.

    Twelve centuries’ recognition and celebration of same – sex relationships.
    Same – sex relationships in Christian Church history, and their recognition, took many forms. Many were emotionally intimate but celibate, befitting their status as monks priests or bishops, others were not. The Eastern church recognized the value of close friendships between men in the liturgical rite of “adelphopoiesis”, or “making of brotherhood”, the Western church had is equivalent, in the practice known as “sworn brotherhood” (or “wedded brothers”) in the West. By the Middle Ages, a number of leading bishops, abbots and saints recognized their value: St Aelred of Rievaulx wrote a book on their value, “On Spiritual Friendship”, and others wrote poems or love letters in praise of their own particular friendships.

    The later suppression of same – sex relationships
    From about the fourteenth century to the twentieth, under the Inquisition and later, close friendships between monks and clergy were actively discouraged, and actual sɛҳuąƖ acts severely punished. But by the middle and late twentieth century, there began a subtle shift in Catholic thinking. The docuмent, “Persona Humana“, in 1975   for the first time recognized the existence of “ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons” as a distinct class of persons, and a same-sex orientation as an observable natural phenomenon. This forced some serious consideration of a pastoral response to this class of people, resulting in the 1986 Hallowe’en Letter, “HomesɛҳuąƖitatis Problema” (“The Problem of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity”), described as a letter on the “Pastoral Care of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Persons”.  With its absolute prohibition on same -sex genital acts, and its description of the orientation as “intrinsically disordered”, the letter was met with widespread anger and outrage. The enduring resentment it caused has rather obscured what is probably more important: notwithstanding the contents of the docuмent, and its status as the most recent authoritative statement on the subject, mainstream thinking in the Church as a whole has moved on, leaving it far behind.
    Beyond its insistence that all sɛҳuąƖ acts must be open to procreation, the most glaring weakness in the docuмent is the extraordinary asymmetry in its treatment of two classes of people: heterosɛҳuąƖs are described consistently in terms of loving conjugal relationships, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs only in terms of genital acts. Although the Vatican theologians of the twentieth century had finally recognized the existence of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons, it continued to ignore the existence of same – sex relationships, whether sɛҳuąƖ or celibate. Even while insisting that a same – sex orientation was in itself not sinful, the only virtuous life it could hold out for such a person was a strictly celibate one  - which was tacitly assumed to be celibate.

    From genital acts, back to relationships: some bishops adjust.
    In recent years, some modern bishops, in beginning to recognize the value of close same-sex relationships, and of legal recognition for them, have made a connection with this ancient tradition, often in direct response to the prospect of equality being introduced to civil marriage legislation.

    For example, in 2006, retiring Cardinal Theodore  McCarrick of Washington DC, said in an interview with CNN that while opposite – sex marriage was the ideal and should be restricted to between a man and a woman, there could be value in extending legal protection to same – sex couples by civil unions.

    Two years ago this month (April 2o1o), Cardinal  Christoph  Schonborn, of Vienna made his observation (which has never been contradicted by the Vatican) that it is time for the Church to move beyond its obsession with same -sex genital acts, to greater concern for the quality of the relationships.

    Other bishops, including Bishop Januario Torgal Ferreira of Portugal,  Bishop Francis Quinn of California, and Bishop Willie  Walsh of Ireland later followed, with similar remarks.

    Meanwhile, in August 2oo9, in their attempts to forestall the possibility of legal recognition for gαy marriage, the Portuguese bishops proposed civil unions as an alternative, which could be acceptable to them:
    The president of the Portuguese Bishops’ Conference, Archbishop Jorge Ferreira da Costa Ortiga, said this week, “Civil unions can be legalized it that’s what is wanted, but they cannot be made equivalent to marriage.  This problem must be dealt with more slowly and with the involvement of society,” he said.

    In the UK, Archbishop Vincent Nichols has made two important contributions to the debates. First, he stated in a press conference that he could see the value of legal provision for civil unions, and later wrote an extended article for the Catholic Herald, “In praise of friendship”. This article drew explicitly on the earlier writing of Cardinal Basil Hume, but also carried in it disctinct echoes of the medieval writers on same – sex friendship.

    When the New Hampshire legislature was attempting to replace its existing marriage equality legislation with civil unions, the state’s bishops weighed in with their own support for civil unions (even though they had opposed them on their original introduction).

    Bishop Geoffrey Robinson, addressing the New Ways Ministry symposium on relationships, called for a complete overhaul of the entire structure of Catholic sɛҳuąƖ doctrine. At the heart of his call, was a critique of the traditional emphasis on genital acts (for couples of any gender composition), and a call for a new sɛҳuąƖ ethic based on sound relationships.

    Then in quick succession, came reports of Cardinal Martini’s book, in which he states clearly “it isn’t bad for two ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to have a stable relationship”, and Cardinal Schonborn’s acceptance of the election of an openly gαy man to a Vienna parish council. In his announcement, Schonborn stressed the importance of looking at the whole person, not simply at one part of his life. As the “whole person” includes his relationship, and the one part of his life that had caused some concern was his sɛҳuąƖ partnership, this important decision simply put into practical effect his own words two years ago – to look beyond the genital acts, to the quality of the relationships.

    The obvious rejoinder to the listing of bishops above, is that they are a mere handful, among thousands of bishops worldwide.  The small number who have spoken out publicly though, is misleading. When evaluating movement in the Catholic Church, it is important to observe what is NOT said, as much as what is. I think there are three important considerations here.

    First, is that it is significant that except for Schonborn and Nichols, the other individuals I have named spoke up either in. entering or nearing retirement: at a time in their careers when they no longer need to watch their words to protect their jobs.  Others need to be more cautious, and we can be certain that what a handful of bishops are saying publicly, others are thinking privately, or even discussing with trusted friends and colleagues.

    This is easily demonstrated, but pointing to the record: although I’ve been actively looking for it, I have still not come across any reports that Cardinal Schonborn’s original observation from 2009 has yet been contradicted by any senior person in the church. If there were any substantial disagreement, surely somebody, somewhere, would have done so? There has also not been any public rejection of Archbishop Robinson’s even more emphatic rejection of traditional doctrine (although admittedly, it’s still early days on that score).

    Finally, I repeat another observation I have made before: amidst all the hysteria among Catholic bishops of the US, UK and Australia in opposition to proposed marriage equality, the arguments have all been against marriage, specifically. I have still not seen any public criticism of same – sex relationships, and no repetition of that nasty “disordered”.

    So, I am convinced that among our Catholic bishops, there is a widespread rethink on gαy relationships under way. But that’s only part of the picture, and not the most important part. In the Church as a whole, the thinking has moved way beyond just considering the need for reform. In starting to talk publicly about the need for reform, the bishops are doing no more than acknowledging what for the rest of us, is rapidly becoming the new orthodoxy: the bishops are simply catching up with the wider church.

    Is change possible? Some conservative writers insist that Catholic doctrine is constant and unchangeable, and that “reform” is a dirty word, tantamount to heresy. That is nonsense. Throughout his career, as a young theologian and as pope, Benedict XVI has often referred to the need for change and its inevitability. He has written about the importance of guarding against the “distorting tradition” in church history, last year he spoke of how the example  of St Joan of Arc demonstrated that even the authorized theologians of the Church can be wrong, and their judgements overturned, and in an homily this week, he acknowledged that there could be some unhappiness at the slow pace of change.

    Change in the Catholic Church, including Catholic theology,  is constant – but gradual.

    Bishops are merely catching up with the rest of the Church
     the great majority of Catholic moral theologians writing today support revisionist positions in general
    -Charles Curran
    There is a more pressing reason for recognizing that change in sɛҳuąƖ teaching is on the way. The bishops are only one part of the Church. In major sections of the rest of it, change is not just coming – it’s already arrived. We know from research, that the rules on artificial contraception are overwhelmingly ignored, undermining the foundation of sɛҳuąƖ teaching: that every sɛҳuąƖ act must be open to procreation. We also know that on many other aspects of sɛҳuąƖ teaching, most Catholics do not agree with the authorized doctrine, including cohabitation before marriage, remarriage after divorce, masturbation, homoerotic relationships, and even abortion. (Most Catholics agree that abortion is morally wrong, but do not agree that it should be prohibited in all cases, even of rape or threats to the mother’s life).
     
    So, for most ordinary Catholics, change has already come. They know the rules, but simply disregard them as irrelevant to their lives. That in itself raises serious questions about the sensus fidelium – but I’m not going to pursue that, today. It’s too easy for critics to simply dismiss those in disagreement as somehow not “real Catholics”, whose opinions don’t matter.

    Instead, I want to point to another group, whose opinions really do matter: the Catholic professional theologians and priests, whose business it is to know what they are talking about. There is compelling evidence that at the very least, a major proportion of these believe the teaching must change.

    Over a year ago, about 40% of all professional theologians in Germany, Austria and Switzerland signed a public declaration calling for fundamental reform of the church, specifically including reform of sɛҳuąƖ doctrine, among other demands. There will be many more who support the demands in principle, but did not sign, or who support sɛҳuąƖ reform, but not the full list.

    Chris named some prominent theologians who have articulated a system of sɛҳuąƖ ethics that moves away from a foundation in procreation, to one based on sound and healthy human relationships - Todd Salzmann and Michael Lawler, and Sister Margaret Farley, and Dr James B Nickoloff , Bishop Geoffrey Robinson, James Alison , and Joshua Allen.

    At least one moral theologian similarly believes that a strong majority of his peers want reform. In his foreword to “The sɛҳuąƖ Person” [Salzmann and Lawler], Charles Curran usefully describes how disagreement with Humanae Vitae, culminating in the publication in 1977 of “Human sɛҳuąƖity: New Directions in American Catholic Thought”  led in effect to a division among theologians into two broad camps: what he calls a “revisionist” group, and another, committed to supporting the Magisterium. In his view, this is how they divide:
    Within the Catholic theological community, all recognize that the great majority of Catholic moral theologians writing today support revisionist positions in general, but a strong minority defends the positions of the hierarchical Magisterium.  

    That’s the professional theologians. What about the priests, who are not involved in theology full time, but are certainly well -trained in it, and are engaged full time in the practice and promotion of the Catholic faith. Do they count as “real” Catholics?

    In Austria, about a third of all priests signed a remarkable “call to disobedience”, demanding much the same list of reforms as the theologians. Again, there will be many more who agree with the aims, but not with the extreme tactic of calling for disobedience. Similar public calls were later made by priests in Belgium and Ireland.

    Privately, we know that a substantial proportion of priests do not comply with their vows of celibacy, and engage in sɛҳuąƖ relationships themselves. Necessarily outside of legal marriage, these are self – evidently in contravention not only of their priestly vows, but also the broader Catholic doctrine.

    It’s impossible to produce absolutely reliable figure, but it’s reasonable to assume that a strong majority, by their own actions, or by their acceptance of contraception by their parishioners, demonstrate a belief that there should be some changes in doctrine.

    …in 1993 a BBC television reporter asked Cardinal Jose Sanchez, then head of the Congregation for Clergy, what he thought of the estimates and reports that between 40 and 50 percent of Catholic clergy were sɛҳuąƖly active. He said on the television special, later seen by 90 million viewers, “I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of those figures.”
    -Richard Sipe

    Many of those who do attempt to live within the vows, fall back in good conscience on masturbation as a means of relief to avoid temptation with another.
    Pepe Rodriguez, a Spanish journalist, wrote La vida sɛҳuąƖ del clero (The sɛҳuąƖ Life of the Clergy) in 1995. His conclusions included: that of the Spanish priests studied 95 percent masturbate and 60 percent have sɛҳuąƖ relationships.
    -Richard Sipe

    Still more may attempt to live fully within the teaching for themselves, but will have seen, from their conversations with married parishioners, the harm that has been done by Humanae Vitae, and will recognize that it, at least, needs revision.

    The bishops who have begun to speak about the need for reform of sɛҳuąƖ doctrine, or for a renewed emphasis in pastoral care on “respect, compassion and sensitivity” and appreciation that there is more to gαy lives then simple lust and genital acts, are welcome – but they are not leading the Church. They are simply catching up with the real Church. In time, the rest of their colleagues will come running to join them.
    Then, when the authorized sɛҳuąƖ doctrine has been encoded and docuмented, we will hear once again, that Catholic teaching is unchanging and has always been so – firmly founded in healthy human relationships.

    On- line Resources
    Francoeur, Robert T:  Catholic Culture and sɛҳuąƖity
    Nickoloff, James. “ ‘Intrinsically Disordered’ :gαy People and the Holiness of the Church”
    Soble, Alan. sɛҳuąƖ Investigations . New York: New York University Press,1996. (chapter 4)
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    •   Bishop Robinson: Catholic Assertions, Not Arguments
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline songbird

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    On the Chirch and the gαys
    « Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »
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  • Nadir:  No matter how you stack it up, those who are going against natural law will see hell.  They are doomed fools.  You can not take what God has created called marriage of man and woman for procreation.  You, Nadir, are using "man's" definition of anything goes.  No Truth.  You can not show that God made ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, you can not prove that God made them.  Man has fooled around with hormones, insulin shots for many decades.  Those who claimed ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the 12 hundreds, like Knights of Templar, who at the top were ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, saw themselves hung.  The agenda of the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs is to destroy the family, which is very obvious, you will know them by their fruits, none.  Hate:  hate of the devils works.  Even God gave the angels free will to decide and those who decide not serving God, are the damned fools.   We trads know that the church you speak of is not catholic and is of a New Order and they serve Satan.  We are not duped by your posts and I am sure you would like to spin our wheels and play ToastMaster.  We are not duped.  Anyone who falls for the agenda of satan will get what God has promised. Those who do not believe in me will be condemned.