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Online Mithrandylan

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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2014, 10:14:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Sneakyticks
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    With every post you merely increase my repugnance for sedevacantism due to your bitterness and spite.


    It seems you stopped being a sedevacantist due to some gripe or problem with some sedevacantist, since this is your #1 excuse against it.


    Not with A sedevacantist, but with sedevacantists in general.  There's very bad spiritual fruit there, pretty much everywhere I looked, and it's an application of Our Lord's "by their fruits you shall know them".  You prove this yet again.



    That axiom about fruits refers to doctrine.  

    Not that dispositions can't be indicative of one thing or another, but it's usually personality that is indicated by outward dispositions.  Who knows, maybe you just have bad timing?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #46 on: July 05, 2014, 10:29:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Father Jenkins articulates the position I have taken very well.  Someone here posted a video of his exposition of the subject.


    "I don't say that he's not the pope - I just can't see how he can be one"


    Offline Sneakyticks

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    « Reply #47 on: July 06, 2014, 12:23:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Sneakyticks
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    With every post you merely increase my repugnance for sedevacantism due to your bitterness and spite.


    It seems you stopped being a sedevacantist due to some gripe or problem with some sedevacantist, since this is your #1 excuse against it.


    Not with A sedevacantist, but with sedevacantists in general.  There's very bad spiritual fruit there, pretty much everywhere I looked, and it's an application of Our Lord's "by their fruits you shall know them".  You prove this yet again.



    You mean they defend without end, what they know to be the teaching of the Church?  

    Just like any politician if you agree, they are of good will, no matter how rude, if you disagree they are just of bad will, plain and simple.   :sad:


    This.

    I have already said Ladislaus mistakes intransigence and intolerance towards error and heresy, which should be the norm for any real Catholic anyways, for "bitterness, darkness of soul, angry" etc.

    I will admit I have gone over the top, but only because I just can't believe how someone who knows better still keeps making the same old false arguments against sedevacantism.

    If I believe what you say is poppycock, which it is, what do you expect me to do? Slowly move my head up and down with my mouth open in utter amazement? Say that I "respect" what you say and believe, which I don't and can't?

    Offline Sneakyticks

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    « Reply #48 on: July 06, 2014, 12:43:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Why don't we all admit that every group has got its own special bitterness and arrogance.


    No, there's a unique, dark, and distinct bitterness present among nearly all sedevacantists.  I know it well.  Sneakyticks is basically foaming at the mouth to an extent that's borderline diabolical.



    Do you know what righteous anger/indignation is? Did you know Saint Anthony Marie Claret had a seizure when he heard of all the heresies that were floating around during Vatican I? How was that?

    Were the Saints who destroyed idols and pagan templates all foaming at the mouth too? Will you call them "hotheads" like the Ratman did?

    Actually, I have thought of getting a big hammer to destroy rocks because I get so upset when I read the heresies of the novus ordo or of any of the antipopes or any other heretic apostate in the "hierarchy" or even my family members. I feel like destroying things whenever I read or hear about those things.

    But you're a soft indifferentist.

    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #49 on: July 06, 2014, 05:08:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Father Jenkins articulates the position I have taken very well.  Someone here posted a video of his exposition of the subject.


    "I don't say that he's not the pope - I just can't see how he can be one"


    Ladislaus, should the sede-doubtist priest omit the name of the doubtful pope in the Canon?

     


    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #50 on: July 06, 2014, 06:41:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Why don't we all admit that every group has got its own special bitterness and arrogance.


    No, there's a unique, dark, and distinct bitterness present among nearly all sedevacantists.  I know it well.  Sneakyticks is basically foaming at the mouth to an extent that's borderline diabolical.



    Yes, you do know it well.  You see it in the anti-BOD posts as well.  Some of the hardline anti-BODers are some of the most bitter, arrogant, nasty posters, but in that case you don't call it out.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #51 on: July 06, 2014, 06:48:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I've explained this many times.  Theologians classify papal legitimacy as a dogmatic fact.  It must be known with the certainty of faith that a pope is legitimate because otherwise no dogmas defined by said pope could ever be known with the certainty of faith.

    This example here sums up the problem with straight sedevacantism.  Let's say I felt at the time of Vatican I that papal infallibility was heretical.  All I'd have to do is to say that Pius IX was a heretic and a non-pope in order to reject the dogma.  Consequently we must have a priori knowledge of papal legitimacy to preserve the entire Magisterium.


    Since you've entirely ignored this argument, I'll quote myself.

    In the example given above, please explain why it would have been wrong for that person to reject Pius IX as a heretic based on the belief that infallibility was heretical (some people did in fact believe that, by the way).


    Was Vatican I the first time the Church taught papal infallibility?  Was 1854 the first time the Church taught the Immaculate Conception?  Did these teachings contradict prior Church teachings?  I have never heard that they did.


    Are there answers to these questions?

    Offline obertray imondday

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    « Reply #52 on: July 06, 2014, 07:16:45 AM »
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  • The goal of the liberals is to turn men into doubting Thomas, sede-doubtism is a branch of masonry just like the sanhedrin. Doubting has nothing in common with faith.

    If you believe Francis is the pope and the novus ordo is the Catholic Church  you need to get back in there right now or you are no different then the Pharisee high priests and Jєωιѕн scribes & layman that believed in Christ but resisted or doubted Him for whatever reasons they had.

    Someone in another post said acknowledge and resisting is like Protestantism I agree with that, protesting and resisting are the same things. Protestants hold up a bible and say these are the words of God and resist the Catholic Church that gave it to them while acknowledge and resist groups say "that man is the pope and that is the Catholic Church" but protest against Her.


    Online Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #53 on: July 06, 2014, 07:20:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I've explained this many times.  Theologians classify papal legitimacy as a dogmatic fact.  It must be known with the certainty of faith that a pope is legitimate because otherwise no dogmas defined by said pope could ever be known with the certainty of faith.

    This example here sums up the problem with straight sedevacantism.  Let's say I felt at the time of Vatican I that papal infallibility was heretical.  All I'd have to do is to say that Pius IX was a heretic and a non-pope in order to reject the dogma.  Consequently we must have a priori knowledge of papal legitimacy to preserve the entire Magisterium.


    Since you've entirely ignored this argument, I'll quote myself.

    In the example given above, please explain why it would have been wrong for that person to reject Pius IX as a heretic based on the belief that infallibility was heretical (some people did in fact believe that, by the way).


    Was Vatican I the first time the Church taught papal infallibility?  Was 1854 the first time the Church taught the Immaculate Conception?  Did these teachings contradict prior Church teachings?  I have never heard that they did.


    Are there answers to these questions?


    Both of those definitions are taught by the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Very few bishops were against the defining of papal infallibility, in fact the majority of the those who opposed it's definition only opposed it at that particular time for political reasons.  Cowardly and self-serving, but not actually heretical.  Very few actually opposed it on a "doctrinal level" and those who did are who we've come to know as the "Old Catholics."  

    Ladislaus poses a point that has some truth to it, but I don't think it's a difficulty for the sede vacante position.  We accept the faith on the authority of God, and the Church he founded.  So, morally speaking, it is necessary to know the identity of those who comprise the hierarchy, and at this time we (or at least, myself and everyone I know!) is unaware of who and where they are.  God provides, of course-- it's no accident that this crisis comes at a time when certainly legitimate authorities (although dead) are available so easily.

    St. Paul says that if he, or even an angel from Heaven teaches a foreign gospel, let him be anathema.  We reject the Novus Ordo program because it is contrary to what we have already received and believed on the authority of the Church.  And we also know that such an instance (being proposed a false faith by one who appears to be an authority) is possible based on this.  

    Anyways, back to the immediate point, both of those doctrines are taught by the OUM so one who would deny the legitimacy of Pius IX on the grounds Ladislaus describes is not following St. Paul's instruction where traditionalists are.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #54 on: July 06, 2014, 07:31:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I've explained this many times.  Theologians classify papal legitimacy as a dogmatic fact.  It must be known with the certainty of faith that a pope is legitimate because otherwise no dogmas defined by said pope could ever be known with the certainty of faith.

    This example here sums up the problem with straight sedevacantism.  Let's say I felt at the time of Vatican I that papal infallibility was heretical.  All I'd have to do is to say that Pius IX was a heretic and a non-pope in order to reject the dogma.  Consequently we must have a priori knowledge of papal legitimacy to preserve the entire Magisterium.


    Since you've entirely ignored this argument, I'll quote myself.

    In the example given above, please explain why it would have been wrong for that person to reject Pius IX as a heretic based on the belief that infallibility was heretical (some people did in fact believe that, by the way).


    Was Vatican I the first time the Church taught papal infallibility?  Was 1854 the first time the Church taught the Immaculate Conception?  Did these teachings contradict prior Church teachings?  I have never heard that they did.


    Are there answers to these questions?


    Both of those definitions are taught by the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Very few bishops were against the defining of papal infallibility, in fact the majority of the those who opposed it's definition only opposed it at that particular time for political reasons.  Cowardly and self-serving, but not actually heretical.  Very few actually opposed it on a "doctrinal level" and those who did are who we've come to know as the "Old Catholics."  

    Ladislaus poses a point that has some truth to it, but I don't think it's a difficulty for the sede vacante position.  We accept the faith on the authority of God, and the Church he founded.  So, morally speaking, it is necessary to know the identity of those who comprise the hierarchy, and at this time we (or at least, myself and everyone I know!) is unaware of who and where they are.  God provides, of course-- it's no accident that this crisis comes at a time when certainly legitimate authorities (although dead) are available so easily.

    St. Paul says that if he, or even an angel from Heaven teaches a foreign gospel, let him be anathema.  We reject the Novus Ordo program because it is contrary to what we have already received and believed on the authority of the Church.  And we also know that such an instance (being proposed a false faith by one who appears to be an authority) is possible based on this.  

    Anyways, back to the immediate point, both of those doctrines are taught by the OUM so one who would deny the legitimacy of Pius IX on the grounds Ladislaus describes is not following St. Paul's instruction where traditionalists are.


    I guess my point is were these teachings out of the blue?  I highly doubt that.  There has got to be papal quotes, saint quotes, theologian comments/teachings that supported these "new" definitions at the time.

    If I am correct, then it is inappropriate to use them as analogies for responses to Vatican II and its hierarchy.

    Offline The Penny Catechism

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    « Reply #55 on: July 06, 2014, 08:52:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont

    Was Vatican I the first time the Church taught papal infallibility?  Was 1854 the first time the Church taught the Immaculate Conception?  Did these teachings contradict prior Church teachings?  I have never heard that they did.

    Are there answers to these questions?

    I guess my point is were these teachings out of the blue?  I highly doubt that.  There has got to be papal quotes, saint quotes, theologian comments/teachings that supported these "new" definitions at the time.


    I. Infallibility
    Fourth council of Constantinople/ Second council of Lyons/ Council of Florence session 6 from "Decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils Volume II" pg. 815



    II. on I.C.
    Pope Sixtus IV recognized feast of the Immaculate Conception in a papal bull issued in 1476 from "Renovatio Urbis: Architecture, Urbanism and Ceremony in the Rome of Julius II" pg. 182

    *I'm sure there's plenty of other Papal/ councils but I got run off to Mass
    (Pius IX's Ineffabilis Deus and Ubi Primum may have some stuff in there??)


    Online Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #56 on: July 06, 2014, 09:28:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I've explained this many times.  Theologians classify papal legitimacy as a dogmatic fact.  It must be known with the certainty of faith that a pope is legitimate because otherwise no dogmas defined by said pope could ever be known with the certainty of faith.

    This example here sums up the problem with straight sedevacantism.  Let's say I felt at the time of Vatican I that papal infallibility was heretical.  All I'd have to do is to say that Pius IX was a heretic and a non-pope in order to reject the dogma.  Consequently we must have a priori knowledge of papal legitimacy to preserve the entire Magisterium.


    Since you've entirely ignored this argument, I'll quote myself.

    In the example given above, please explain why it would have been wrong for that person to reject Pius IX as a heretic based on the belief that infallibility was heretical (some people did in fact believe that, by the way).


    Was Vatican I the first time the Church taught papal infallibility?  Was 1854 the first time the Church taught the Immaculate Conception?  Did these teachings contradict prior Church teachings?  I have never heard that they did.


    Are there answers to these questions?


    Both of those definitions are taught by the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Very few bishops were against the defining of papal infallibility, in fact the majority of the those who opposed it's definition only opposed it at that particular time for political reasons.  Cowardly and self-serving, but not actually heretical.  Very few actually opposed it on a "doctrinal level" and those who did are who we've come to know as the "Old Catholics."  

    Ladislaus poses a point that has some truth to it, but I don't think it's a difficulty for the sede vacante position.  We accept the faith on the authority of God, and the Church he founded.  So, morally speaking, it is necessary to know the identity of those who comprise the hierarchy, and at this time we (or at least, myself and everyone I know!) is unaware of who and where they are.  God provides, of course-- it's no accident that this crisis comes at a time when certainly legitimate authorities (although dead) are available so easily.

    St. Paul says that if he, or even an angel from Heaven teaches a foreign gospel, let him be anathema.  We reject the Novus Ordo program because it is contrary to what we have already received and believed on the authority of the Church.  And we also know that such an instance (being proposed a false faith by one who appears to be an authority) is possible based on this.  

    Anyways, back to the immediate point, both of those doctrines are taught by the OUM so one who would deny the legitimacy of Pius IX on the grounds Ladislaus describes is not following St. Paul's instruction where traditionalists are.


    I guess my point is were these teachings out of the blue?  I highly doubt that.  There has got to be papal quotes, saint quotes, theologian comments/teachings that supported these "new" definitions at the time.

    If I am correct, then it is inappropriate to use them as analogies for responses to Vatican II and its hierarchy.


    They definitely didn't come out of the blue.

    Even if they had ("come out of the blue"), inasmuch as it is possible for a given doctrine to enjoy a more implicit expression for decades or even centuries before it begins to be expressed in an explicit manner, it still would be radically different from Vatican II, which elevated (or at least, flirted with) condemned (and solemnly condemned) errors.

    As you say, it's an inappropriate analogy.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Sneakyticks

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    « Reply #57 on: July 06, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Why don't we all admit that every group has got its own special bitterness and arrogance.


    No, there's a unique, dark, and distinct bitterness present among nearly all sedevacantists.  I know it well.  Sneakyticks is basically foaming at the mouth to an extent that's borderline diabolical.



    Yes, you do know it well.  You see it in the anti-BOD posts as well.  Some of the hardline anti-BODers are some of the most bitter, arrogant, nasty posters, but in that case you don't call it out.



    Yes, he himself has called people here heretics and insulted them. This man is just a deluded hypocrite.

    Offline Sneakyticks

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    « Reply #58 on: July 06, 2014, 09:42:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    This example here sums up the problem with straight sedevacantism. Let's say I felt at the time of Vatican I that papal infallibility was heretical. All I'd have to do is to say that Pius IX was a heretic and a non-pope in order to reject the dogma. Consequently we must have a priori knowledge of papal legitimacy to preserve the entire Magisterium.


    This kind of "argument" is pure nonsense and these are the things that make me really upset.

    You're not a serious person.

    What you say here is so annoying it doesn't even deserve an answer since it is so manifestly false, a strawman and hypocritical.

    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #59 on: July 06, 2014, 10:44:37 AM »
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  • Concerning the legitimacy of a Papal election being a dogmatic fact, once it is accepted by the Church, it is indeed the unanimous theological teaching. You'll find it in any manual, or explanation of theological notes, this is universally taught. All theologians and canonists, even those who speak of the possibility of subsequent loss of office ipso facto affirm that we know by faith that the universal acceptance of a given Pope is a "sign and infallible effect of a valid election" and therefore proves all conditions required for validity were fulfilled. For e.g.

    Quote from: Xavier Da Silveira
    In respect to a doubtful Pope, it is necessary to make it very clear here that the peaceful acceptance of a Pope by the whole Church is “a sign and an infallible effect of a valid election”.

    Wernz-Vidal, Ius Can. II, p. 437, note 170. - The expression “infallible effect” does not indicate here an effect which infallibly follows from its cause. But it indicates something which, if it occurs, can only have been produced by such a cause, of which therefore it is, beyond a shadow of doubt, an effect - that is, an “infallible effect”. See the exposition of this specific point in Suarez, De Fide, disp.X. sect. V., n. 8, p. 315.


    Quote from: Cardinal Journet, Church of the Word Incarnate
    It is therefore an act in itself infallible and is immediately recognizable as such. (Consequently, and mediately, it will appear that all conditions prerequisite to the validity of the election have been fulfilled. ) Acceptance by the Church operates either negatively, when the election is not at once contested; or positively, when the election is first accepted by those present and then gradually by the rest (cf. John of St. Thomas, II-II, qq. 1-7; disp. 2, a. 2, nos. 1, 15, 28, 34, 40; pp. 228 et seq.