Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: On SV  (Read 13969 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11528
  • Reputation: +6470/-1191
  • Gender: Female
On SV
« Reply #180 on: July 10, 2014, 08:29:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Sneakyticks
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    There's no consensus as for what "to do" in the case of a heretic being elected?  Or there's no consensus over whether or not such a man can be pope?

    The former question is one of practicalities.  The latter question indeed has a consensus, and it's that such a man is not pope, he either is invalidly elected (having been a heretic at the time of the election and being invalid matter for the papacy) or, having been validly elected, loses his office by his own action when he exits the Church.  There is absolutely a consensus on this, let's not pretend otherwise.  

    Not that it's immediately relevant, but anyone may rebuke a superior.  It is untrue that it must happen "by the Church."  


    You think someone like her will care to know that she is completely wrong and that what she says is false?

    She probably doesn't even READ or CONSIDER or ANALYZE CRITICALLY anything that proves her wrong.

    That is some serious bad will.


    Oh, I know. But others read the forum as well.  Cantarella is a anti-sedevacantism vending machine, she dispenses day in and day out the same old stale, recycled and repackaged crap, calls it an argument ( which would be like calling a Snickers bar dinner)and expects people to eat it up. Point being, she only employs strawmen, completely lacks circuмspection, and couldn't care less what the SV argument actually IS.  So, she ends up conveniently representing the entirety of the anti SV position on her own, which would be convenient if it weren't so offensive.


    Poor Myth.  

    It's so hard to defend the indefensible in a forum where you can't be a mod.

    The objective error of sedevacantism continues to spread its poison, unabated.

    Why?  Because it's not a threat.  

    There are sedevacantist priests in the SSPX and in NovusOrdo dioceses all over the world, and they are not disciplined or expelled or marginalized.  Not even Pope Francis is hard on them -- because they are not a threat.  

    And likewise Myth is not a threat.  Poor Myth.


    .


    Kinda like the SBC?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27672/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #181 on: July 10, 2014, 08:34:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Unlike the Dimonds, I recognize that my opinion regarding BoD/BoB is based on my private judgment and I cannot go around declaring anyone who believes in BoD to be heretics (like they themselves do).  


    Not to turn this into a thread about BOD, but I'm pretty sure you have called the BODers here heretics.  Your posts, as well as others on that topic, absolutely come across as if the anti-BOD view is not just private judgment.  


    No, I do not call the opinion of BoD itself heresy.  When I used the term heresy, I was referring to people who extend BoD to include people who are outside the Church and not Catholic.  That involves a rejection of EENS.  In fact, I called out the Dimonds as being schismatic for considering as heretics and outside the Church those who might hold the opinion of BoD in the same sense as it was understood by, say, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine.

    BoD clouds the real issue here, which is denial of EENS and the V2 ecclesiology which results logically from their distorted view of BoD.  EENS-deniers tend to hide behind BoD as cover, pretending that they deny EENS on the authority of St. Thomas or St. Robert.




    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27672/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #182 on: July 10, 2014, 08:38:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Sneakyticks
    It is one thing to be unsure about what's going on and having your doubts and not knowing what to do etc., that's all fine and the way it goes, but when you go around in public and mislead others, and condemn SV when you have been proven wrong on the matter dozens of times, then we have a problem.


    What I condemn is dogmatic SV.  I have never been proven wrong about my position.  Again, you keep pretending that I believe in the principles of R&R, which I do not.  R&R is wrong; SV proper is wrong.  Sede-doubtism is IMO the correct opinion.  Whom am I misleading, you?  Nobody cares what I think anyway, especially not sedevacantists.  I call out R&R for being incompatible with Traditional Catholic theology all the time.



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27672/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #183 on: July 10, 2014, 08:42:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I really really do not understand what is so difficult to understand about my position.  I personally think that the Holy See is vacant but acknowledge that I might be wrong about this and that I do not have the authority to make a definitive conclusion on the matter based on my own private judgment.  How is it that you take offense at this except that you're a rabid dogmatic sedevacantist?  And I believe that this is the only true Catholic position.  SVism proper, the dogmatic kind, usurps the authority of the Church and allows people to EFFECTIVELY depose popes based on their private judgment, whereas R&R creates an indefensible caricature of Church authority, submission to the Magisterium, and undermines the Church's indefectibility and infallibility.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6470/-1191
    • Gender: Female
    On SV
    « Reply #184 on: July 10, 2014, 08:45:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Sneakyticks
    It is one thing to be unsure about what's going on and having your doubts and not knowing what to do etc., that's all fine and the way it goes, but when you go around in public and mislead others, and condemn SV when you have been proven wrong on the matter dozens of times, then we have a problem.


    What I condemn is dogmatic SV.  I have never been proven wrong about my position.  Again, you keep pretending that I believe in the principles of R&R, which I do not.  R&R is wrong; SV proper is wrong.  Sede-doubtism is IMO the correct opinion.  Whom am I misleading, you?  Nobody cares what I think anyway, especially not sedevacantists.  I call out R&R for being incompatible with Traditional Catholic theology all the time.




    I can vouch for this.  When it comes to SV and R&R Ladislaus has offered positive and negative points to both.  Every once in awhile he makes a post that makes me wonder, but I think generally he is fair on both accounts.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6470/-1191
    • Gender: Female
    On SV
    « Reply #185 on: July 10, 2014, 08:46:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Sede-doubtism is IMO the correct opinion


    Are you 100% certain about that?


    OK now that made me laugh.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27672/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #186 on: July 10, 2014, 09:08:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah, yes, you think you're quite clever, but the answer is, no, I am not sure of this.  Since I can find no Church teaching about this matter, as with all other things, I am relying upon my private judgment and on the application of various Catholic theological principles.  Consequently, I am liable to be mistaken on this point as well.

    It's not about walking through life making a coin-flip or sitting around quivering and incapable of making a decision.  It's simply about being humble and acknowledging our place and acknowledging our own fallibility.

    And that's where most of you SVs get into trouble spiritually, through your absolute refusal to admit that you COULD be wrong.  Although at one point, 2Vermont, you admitted that you did think there was some possibility that you could have gotten something wrong in your analysis.  THAT is what I am talking about.  Mere acknowledgment of this is HUGE.  On the other hand, you see people like Sneaky running around basically foaming at the mouth, an attitude which leads inexorably to dogmatic sedevacantism where you declare as heretics someone who doesn't hold your opinion and you mistake your opinion as having the certainty of faith.  If you are wrong, only a radical intervention from the Mercy of God can ever correct your error.  So you are in great peril.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27672/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #187 on: July 10, 2014, 09:20:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    This is a great example.  This man is clearly non-Catholic.  He does not even profess to be Catholic.  This man could not be pope.


    But it's not a great example.  Jorge Bergoglio professes to be Catholic and claims to accept Catholic teaching.  That's where the whole Dimond argument falls apart.  They kept citing Nancy Peℓσѕι who goes around openly rejecting what she KNOWS to be Catholic teaching.  That's obvious manifest heresy.  Jorge Bergoglio seems to want to accept Church teaching and thinks that his opinions can be reconciled with Church teaching.  Apart from the EENS question, Jorge Bergoglio has not openly contradicted any known Catholic dogma.  I've asked for the SVs to prove heresy, and they have been unable to do so.  And the closest he comes is on the EENS question, but his stance on EENS can be reduced to the very principles that are, ironically, also held by 95% of all Traditional Catholics.  I can ABSOLUTELY SQUARE Jorge Bergoglio's attitude towards EENS with Suprema Haec.

    Most SVs just throw around the charge of heresy like loose cannons because of their personal contempt for Jorge Bergoglio.  But heresy is a serious charge that needs to be proven.  Not every error is HERESY.  There's a high bar for heresy.  Not every wishy-washy touchy-feely sermon or misguided charity or lack of firmness in defending the truth in the interests of not offending someone or participating in a non-Catholic ritual so as to be a nice guy constitute HERESY.  Sure they render him SUSPECT of heresy, but that's short of heresy itself.  I have yet to see proof that Jorge Bergoglio is a heretic in the strict sense of the term.  You operate based on a gut feel and personal dislike and contempt for the things he does, and so the accusation of "heresy" gets flung out there quite freely, but when push comes to shove, the SVs struggle at finding an example of heresy.  Just to be honest, I put myself in the position of Bergoglio's "defense lawyer" on one thread and there was not one charge of "heresy" that I couldn't easily refute.  I might start a thread dedicated to that subject.




    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #188 on: July 10, 2014, 09:40:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .


    Post
    Quote from: Ladislaus

    Nishant made a good point about universal acceptance of a Pope being the criterion for legitimacy.  It make sense as the a priori establishment of the dogmatic fact of legitimacy.  I think about this often and haven't come to a final resolution on the subject.

    Let's say that a Pius XIII came along and declared BoD to be heretical.  You, I suspect, would just reject Pius XIII as a heretic and thus refuse his dogmatic teaching.  If this hypothetical Pius XIII came along and delcared BoD to be dogma, then I would immediately reject my former opinion and accept the teaching.  Thus the difference between sedevacantism and sededoubtism.  With straight sedevacantism established as permissible you couldn't have any a priori guarantee of the truth of any dogmatic papal teaching.

    By the way, Sneaky, if you were to convince me that Suprema Haec represents true Catholic teaching, then I would immediately cease to be a Traditional Catholic and would accept Vatican II as substantially free form error.  Every error and heresy that can be attributed the the V2 papal claimants can be traced back to and logically follows from the Suprema Haec ecclesiology.



    For the sake of reasonableness, I doubt that any future pope will proclaim BoD to be "heretical."  What is likely to happen is, it would be made clear what the Church teaches in this regard (which this pernicious letter does not do, even though the quote below says it does), such that no Catholic can henceforth accuse someone of "heresy" for saying that BoD isn't "dogma," as they're doing now.

    BoD is a theological speculation for dreamers to muse over, is all, but it has a darker side.  It has absolutely no practical application in the real world except to give a hypothetical platform for subtle denial of EENS as the Church has always taught it.  

    The perennial teaching of the Church regarding EENS has nothing to do with this pernicious private letter of 1949, BTW.




    Here is a clip from a well-known commentary on the pernicious private letter between cardinals of 1949:

    Quote

    A year before the appearance of the Humani generis, the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office sent to the Most Reverend Archbishop of Boston a letter containing explanations on the subject of the dogma that no one can be saved outside of the Catholic Church. This highly important docuмent was approved by Pope Pius XII. Despite the fact that it was sent prior to the issuance of the Humani generis, it was not published until two years after the publication of the encyclical. This Holy Office letter is the Suprema, haec sacra, one of the most important doctrinal statements which appeared during the reign of the late and beloved Sovereign Pontiff [Pope Pius XII].

    This docuмent set forth clearly and in detail, and as the authentic teaching of the Holy See, the explanation of the dogma on the necessity of the Catholic Church for the attainment of eternal salvation which had long been presented as common teaching in the theological teaching on the Church itself.

    The elements of the exposition contained in the Suprema, haec sacra had, of course, long since been presented to the faithful in previous authoritative statements of the Church's magisterium [sic]. The entire doctrine, however, had never before been synthesized and set forth as clearly and in such scientifically complete detail in any previous docuмent.



    It might be worth noting that while "despite the fact that it was sent prior to the issuance of the Humani generis, it was not published until two years after the publication of the encyclical" (Aug. 12, 1950), it was also not published until after the death of its author, Francesco Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani (d. Jan. 1951).

    Why do you suppose they waited until he had died before publishing it?  For example, one of the obvious consequences of such a plan would be that nobody would be able to ask the author any questions about its composition or purpose, since he was dead.

    Furthermore, it is noteworthy that this pernicious private letter between cardinals was given a Denzinger number (801) and insidiously inserted into the next edition of Denzinger (which is not an official publication of the Church) by none other than the disreputable Karl Rahner, as if it were some "authentic teaching of the Holy See" (as said in the above quote), even though it doesn't have any AAS number (which all authentic teachings of the Holy See have).  

    The point is, even though this pernicious private letter between cardinals was in fact no "authentic teaching of the Holy See," it was GIVEN THE APPEARANCE OF HAVING SUCH AUTHORITY, by the likes of Karl Rahner, an acknowledged heretic and Modernist, who had been provided a position of authority in the Church by none other than "our beloved sovereign Pontiff," Pope Pius XII.*  And furthermore, such lap-dog lemmings as the quoted author above, would henceforth scamper to the front lines of public awareness via such publications as Homiletic and Pastoral Review to attempt to defend the indefensible, just like sedevacantists do today (read:  sedes like 'Sneakyticks').

    *Note:  this is the same beloved Pontiff who gave Annibale Bugnini his position of power which would effect eventually the Newmass and the worldwide devastation of our beloved churches.  

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #189 on: July 10, 2014, 09:52:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: 2Vermont

    This is a great example.  This man [referring alternately to Bergoglio or the Dalai Lama] is clearly non-Catholic.  He does not even profess to be Catholic.  This man could not be pope.


    But it's not a great example.  Jorge Bergoglio professes to be Catholic and claims to accept Catholic teaching.  That's where the whole Dimond argument falls apart.  They kept citing Nancy Peℓσѕι who goes around openly rejecting what she KNOWS to be Catholic teaching.  That's obvious manifest heresy.  Jorge Bergoglio seems to want to accept Church teaching and thinks that his opinions can be reconciled with Church teaching.  

    Apart from the EENS question, Jorge Bergoglio has not openly contradicted any known Catholic dogma.  I've asked for the SVs to prove heresy, and they have been unable to do so.  And the closest he comes is on the EENS question, but his stance on EENS can be reduced to the very principles that are, ironically, also held by 95% of all Traditional Catholics.  I can ABSOLUTELY SQUARE Jorge Bergoglio's attitude towards EENS with Suprema Haec.

    Most SVs just throw around the charge of heresy like loose cannons because of their personal contempt for Jorge Bergoglio.  But heresy is a serious charge that needs to be proven.  Not every error is HERESY.  There's a high bar for heresy.  Not every wishy-washy touchy-feely sermon or misguided charity or lack of firmness in defending the truth in the interests of not offending someone or participating in a non-Catholic ritual so as to be a nice guy constitute HERESY.  

    Sure they render him SUSPECT of heresy, but that's short of heresy itself.  I have yet to see proof that Jorge Bergoglio is a heretic in the strict sense of the term.  You operate based on a gut feel and personal dislike and contempt for the things he does, and so the accusation of "heresy" gets flung out there quite freely, but when push comes to shove, the SVs struggle at finding an example of heresy.  

    Just to be honest, I put myself in the position of Bergoglio's "defense lawyer" on one thread and there was not one charge of "heresy" that I couldn't easily refute.  I might start a thread dedicated to that subject.




    This post, above, could have been part of my preceding post, above this one.  

    But the ink dried, as usual.

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #190 on: July 10, 2014, 10:06:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Quote

    BoD is a theological speculation for dreamers to muse over, is all, but it has a darker side.  It has absolutely no practical application in the real world except to give a hypothetical platform for subtle denial of EENS as the Church has always taught it.  



    Why would any Catholic with any intention for spreading the Faith have any part in BoD, as if concern for the fate of unknown distant "ignorant noble natives" on some far-away island is foremost in mind?  

    What concern should they have for such remote and hypothetical cases, when they're unable to convert their next door neighbor because he's protestant or Mormon or Moslem or Jew or pagan or atheist?  


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4579/-579
    • Gender: Female
    On SV
    « Reply #191 on: July 10, 2014, 10:06:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    The point is, even though this pernicious private letter between cardinals was in fact no "authentic teaching of the Holy See," it was GIVEN THE APPEARANCE OF HAVING SUCH AUTHORITY, by the likes of Karl Rahner, an acknowledged heretic and Modernist, who had been provided a position of authority in the Church by none other than "our beloved sovereign Pontiff," Pope Pius XII.*  And furthermore, such lap-dog lemmings as the quoted author above, would henceforth scamper to the front lines of public awareness via such publications as Homiletic and Pastoral Review to attempt to defend the indefensible, just like sedevacantists do today (read:  sedes like 'Sneakyticks').

    *Note:  this is the same beloved Pontiff who gave Annibale Bugnini his position of power which would effect eventually the Newmass and the worldwide devastation of our beloved churches.  



    Yet, for many sedevacantists Pope Pius XII was the last TRUE Pope. Some could argue though that he actually was the father of Liberal Theology in the Church because he did not correct the heresy present in the infamous Letter of 1949. Perhaps due to political reasons he did not clarify that in the Boston Case it was Cushing who was in heresy for claiming there were known exceptions to EENS and not Fr. Feeney. Perhaps he did want to say in public that all Jews need to convert into the Church visibly for salvation. To this day, nobody wants to upset the leftist Jєωιѕн so better not defend the reality of the EENS dogma, which is the only real dogma that the enemies of the Church cannot live with, since it is exclusive. Thus, the error continues spreading globally in the Church by liberals and "traditionalists" alike.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Sneakyticks

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 290
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #192 on: July 10, 2014, 12:25:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    In fact, I called out the Dimonds as being schismatic for considering as heretics and outside the Church those who might hold the opinion of BoD in the same sense as it was understood by, say, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine.


    I wonder if you have ever emailed or called them.

    Offline Sneakyticks

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 290
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #193 on: July 10, 2014, 12:33:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Sneakyticks
    It is one thing to be unsure about what's going on and having your doubts and not knowing what to do etc., that's all fine and the way it goes, but when you go around in public and mislead others, and condemn SV when you have been proven wrong on the matter dozens of times, then we have a problem.


    What I condemn is dogmatic SV.  I have never been proven wrong about my position.  Again, you keep pretending that I believe in the principles of R&R, which I do not.  R&R is wrong; SV proper is wrong.  Sede-doubtism is IMO the correct opinion.  Whom am I misleading, you?  Nobody cares what I think anyway, especially not sedevacantists.  I call out R&R for being incompatible with Traditional Catholic theology all the time.


    So, you cannot be a dogmatic SV, but you can be a dogmatic "neutralist"?

    Both positions can't be true at the same time. Either one or the other is true but not both at the same time.

    You HAVE been proven wrong about your positions dozens of times. The thing is you don't even answer and pretend not answering somehow proves you right.

    SV proper is NOT wrong and I already answered to your oh so difficult question but you just keep ignoring it.

    You have no integrity or honesty at all.

    Offline Sneakyticks

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 290
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    On SV
    « Reply #194 on: July 10, 2014, 01:20:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I really really do not understand what is so difficult to understand about my position.


    Who says there is any difficulty? I have already answered to you but you keep ignoring it.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I personally think that the Holy See is vacant but acknowledge that I might be wrong about this and that I do not have the authority to make a definitive conclusion on the matter based on my own private judgment.  How is it that you take offense at this except that you're a rabid dogmatic sedevacantist?


    Because this is false and hypocritical.

    You never answered my question (gee how many times have i said that already?):

    How come you say that whether or not the Holy See is vacant is the ONE THING you "do not have the authority to make a definitive conclusion on the matter based on my own private judgment" but for all the rest, YOU DO have the authority to make a definitive conclusion on the matter based on my own private judgment?

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    And I believe that this is the only true Catholic position.


    And i believe the moon is pink.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    SVism proper, the dogmatic kind, usurps the authority of the Church and allows people to EFFECTIVELY depose popes based on their private judgment,


    FALSE, the publicly heretical "pope" is deposed by Divine Law.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    whereas R&R creates an indefensible caricature of Church authority, submission to the Magisterium, and undermines the Church's indefectibility and infallibility.


    And your "position" does EXACTLY the same thing, but you vainly say it doesn't when it totally does.