Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: On infants who die without baptism  (Read 980 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • Reputation: +2987/-132
  • Gender: Male
On infants who die without baptism
« on: September 20, 2016, 10:02:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What do you believe happens to them? Do you believe they go to heaven? Do you believe they go to the fires of hell? Do you believe they go to the part of hell called limbo where they do not suffer? Or do you believe something different?

    I believe they go to limbo.
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9256
    • Reputation: +3684/-829
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 06:41:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matto


    I believe they go to limbo.
    Same here. From Who Shall Ascend?:

    Likewise, there is a minimum damnation and a maximum, as damnation means, essentially, the lost of the Beatific Vision. Minimum damnation is death in infancy without Baptism and eternity in Limbo. Deprivation of the vision of God is damnation; in the case of infants, it is the punishment which they share with all men for the sin of Adam. Thus Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) said: "The penalty of original sin is the loss of the vision of God; the penalty of actual sin is the torment of everlasting hell."

    And St. Bonaventure said: "The punishment of being deprived of the sight of God and the loss of heavenly glory effects both adults and children who are unbaptized. The children are punished with others, but by the mildest punishment because they deserve only the punishment of loss but not the punishment of the senses." Any attendant sufferings are a matter of the degree and are determined by the strength of the sinner's obdurate rejection of God.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9702/-4258
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 07:09:36 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Limbo.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4568/-575
    • Gender: Female
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 12:09:57 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unbaptized babies who die are still guilty of original sin, and on that account, they cannot be saved. It is commonly believed that they go to a place of Hell, named Limbo, where there is not physical suffering but "natural" happiness (still, this is a place where God is not, and they do not enjoy the Beatific Vision). There are some, like st. Augustine. who believed unbaptized babies who die are not except from actually suffering torments in Hel, just like everyone else, including physical pain. What we do know for sure is that the Church infallibly defined at the ecumenical councils of Lyons and Florence, that the guilt of original sin suffices for damnation.

    Quote
    “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. […] They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Florence)


    Liberals and other sentimentalists such as cushinguites of course want the unbaptized babies who die to enter Heaven. "An innocent baby cannot go to Hell, that would not be an act of merciful God!", they say. They forget that all of us are actually born into a state of natural damnation (because of the original sin) and not one of us is innocent. All of us are guilty. These liberals pretend that these babies can be also saved through the "baptism of desire"; or that the "desire" of the mother for him to be saved would be sufficient.

    Completely absurd.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9702/-4258
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 01:20:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    (still, this is a place where God is not, and they do not enjoy the Beatific Vision)


    I believe that God would be there in a natural way.  These inhabitants of Limbo could know God with their natural faculties, and I would even think that Our Lord and Our Lady and other saints might visit them.  But God is not there supernaturally, i.e., in the Beatific Vision.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4251
    • Reputation: +2639/-1211
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 02:13:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So maybe Limbo is like the 'garden of eden'?  An earthly paradise, but far below heavenly paradise.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9702/-4258
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 02:44:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pax Vobis
    So maybe Limbo is like the 'garden of eden'?  An earthly paradise, but far below heavenly paradise.


    That's always been my impression of it.

    Offline cassini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1713
    • Reputation: +968/-108
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 03:34:36 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Doesn't the Church teach that unbaptised souls go to Limbo, a place of perfect natural happiness.

    I recall Pope John Paul II bypassed this teaching and suggested they all go to heaven.

    I was at a pro-life convention when I brought up the matter of Catholic teaching as a means to deter Christians from even thinking about abortion.
    I said that if Pope John Paul II's 'wish' were true, what were Catholics worried about when it came to abortion. I said every abortion sent a child to heaven, a child that if it lived may have ended up in hell.

    Well, as you can guess there was silence in that room of a few hundred people, including priests. The chairman said that a Fr Whatshisname would see me after the meeting and correct my thoughts.

    Needless to say Fr Whatshisname never came within a mile of me afterwards. I have never attended a pro-life meeting after that.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4568/-575
    • Gender: Female
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 03:41:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Cantarella
    (still, this is a place where God is not, and they do not enjoy the Beatific Vision)


    I believe that God would be there in a natural way.  These inhabitants of Limbo could know God with their natural faculties, and I would even think that Our Lord and Our Lady and other saints might visit them.  But God is not there supernaturally, i.e., in the Beatific Vision.


    Does that mean that God can be in Hell in a natural way? I do not know what you mean. Limbo must be in Hell, because the proposition that there is an "intermediate" place has been condemned.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5420
    • Reputation: +2987/-132
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 06:13:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: GJC
    They don't go to heaven is the only answer to give.

    I agree they don't go to heaven, but I asked the question to see what others think. Many people who call themselves Catholics believe they go to heaven or at least that some of them do. Even some who claim to be trads believe this and after being reminded of this I started this thread to see what the Cathinfo posters believed.
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9702/-4258
    • Gender: Male
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 07:57:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Cantarella
    (still, this is a place where God is not, and they do not enjoy the Beatific Vision)


    I believe that God would be there in a natural way.  These inhabitants of Limbo could know God with their natural faculties, and I would even think that Our Lord and Our Lady and other saints might visit them.  But God is not there supernaturally, i.e., in the Beatific Vision.


    Does that mean that God can be in Hell in a natural way?


    Of course He can.  He is there by simple virtue of the fact that He continues to keep the souls there in existence.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4568/-575
    • Gender: Female
    On infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #11 on: September 21, 2016, 09:27:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: An Even Seven
    It is not a pelagian fable that those who depart this life with original sin only (i.e. unbaptized infants) are condemned, but without the punishment of fire. Pelagians were also wrong that there is a place between Heaven and hell free of guilt and punishment.


    This is an infallible quote by Pope Zosimus (confirming Canon 2 of Council of Carthage):

    Quote from: Pope Zosimus
    It has been decided that, likewise, if anyone say that it might be understood that in the kingdom of Heaven, there will be some middle place or some place anywhere infants live who departed from this life without Baptism, without which they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For the Lord says:"unless a man is born again of water and of the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the kingdom of God"


    This is the same Pope, St. Zosimus, who also said "No one of our children is held not guilty until he is freed through Baptism".

    Also from this infallible pronouncement:

    Quote from: Pope Innocent III
    " The punishment of original sin is the loss of the vision of God; the punishment for actual sin is the torments of everlasting Hell".


    We can deduce that those who die in the state of original sin like unbaptized infants do NOT see God, as they incur the "loss of the vision of God"; but because these babes do not have any actual sin, then they do not have any "torments of everlasting Hell".

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16