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Author Topic: Interview with Fr. Wathen on the NOM  (Read 2213 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Interview with Fr. Wathen on the NOM
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2023, 11:00:17 AM »
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  • How?  Father Wathen simply said that the Pope does not have the right to promulgate a bad, novel, un-Traditional Liturgy.  Isn't that the reason R&R reject the NOM while continuing to maintain that the V2 popes have been legitimate popes?

    Sean is following the teaching by the authority exercising the power which it assumed, and which the sheep have accorded him, or rather recognized him to have per his office:


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    “58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50]”

    -Mediator Dei

    There was no conflict before V2  and "the revolution" between the authority (and the power accorded it by the sheep) and its exercise of the power, because no pope prior to Paul VI exercised it to the full; he did. And . . .

    Uh oh, now we have a problem.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Interview with Fr. Wathen on the NOM
    « Reply #31 on: October 04, 2023, 11:23:21 AM »
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  • There was no conflict before V2  and "the revolution" between the authority (and the power accorded it by the sheep) and its exercise of the power, because no pope prior to Paul VI exercised it to the full; he did. And . . .
    But in saying this (and believing this) is to limit or completely negate or remove the authority of Pope St. Pius V who made the Law of Quo Primum precisely to protect the Roman Liturgy so as to guarantee that there could never be any new liturgy of the Roman Rite. 

    "We say yes, the authority of the pope is limited, but it is not limited to establishing the liturgy of the Mass for all time, [rather] it is limited to where a successor cannot discard this Mass because of a whimsy or a deviation in Catholic belief, and there has to be a deviation in Catholic belief on the part of pope Paul VI who would introduce such a mass  as what we have, the Novus Ordo Missae..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Interview with Fr. Wathen on the NOM
    « Reply #32 on: October 04, 2023, 11:25:18 AM »
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    When pope Pius V established the Mass, he was merely canonizing a tradition. He was fixing something and making it irrevocable and unchangeable after centuries of development.
    It *should* go without saying, but Quo Primum specifically mentions that it is codifying the Mass, which goes back to Pope St Gregory the Great (400s), who codified it directly from Apostolic sources (i.e. Christ).  So Quo Primum explicitly states it is NOT creating a new rite, but simply making the Divine, Apostolic rite uniform, after centuries of human enhancements.  Divine origin + human/church additions = a Traditional, Apostolic, unchangeable rite.


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    “58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50]”
    :facepalm:  One of the most mis-quoted, taken-out-of-context quotes in post-V2 history.  It must be read in context of the entire docuмent, specifically Pt 50.

    50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circuмstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized. This will explain the marvelous variety of Eastern and Western rites.

    When Paul VI invented his new mess, he changed the words of consecration, which are undoubtedly of Divine origin.  Thus, by this fact alone, the whole rite should be rejected, as Pius XII says above.