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Offline Markus

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Fr. Adam Purdy of the SSPX, who tells traditionalists they should say "Our Lady of Buen Suceso" instead of "Our Lady of Good Success", and who publicly appears to be an "expert" on the devotion, does not speak Spanish...

From Tradition in Action:

Bird’s Eye View of the News
Atila Sinke Guimarães

CONFUSED LANGUAGE, CONFUSED THOUGHTS - The document issued by the Superior of the Convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito was not credible, as I showed in my last column because it suffered from some fundamental insufficiencies.

The principal of them is that the Rev. Mother Abbess who signed that document declaring how the Spanish title of Nuestra Señora del Buen Sucesso should correctly be translated into English does not know English, nor do any of the other three signers. Since no one can legislate on a topic he does not know, obviously, the Rev. Mother Abbess is neither qualified nor entitled to decide definitively what is or is not common usage in English.

Today, I will go one step further.

The chief promoter of the new English titles Our Lady of Buen Suceso and Our Lady of the Good Event, as proposed in that document, is Rev. Fr. Adam Purdy, an American SSPX priest.


Nuns who do not know English decide on the best way a Spanish title should be in English...

... this is presented as the best translation from Spanish by a priest who does not know Spanish

If I am to believe what he said in his sermon on February 2, 2019, delivered at the High Mass in the Conceptionist Convent in Quito, Fr. Purdy

  • has been going to Quito for several years on that date; is now playing an active role in organizing the Procession of the Dawn (Procesión de la Aurora), which used to be a single procession made in the early morning hours of February 2 and now has been replaced by the SSPX with a series of processions made at dawn on the days preceding that Feast Day, and
  • is the SSPX spokesman on this topic. Followers of the SSPX who are now publicly opposing the title Our Lady of Good Success in English always quote him as the final authority on this matter.

What seems bizarre to me is that Rev. Fr. Adam Purdy does not know Spanish. So, if my information is not mistaken, the main SSPX expert in English-speaking countries on how the title Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso should be translated from Spanish to English is ignorant of the Spanish language…

So then, we have a decision issued in Spanish by nuns who do not know English on the best and most authentic way a Spanish title should be translated into English; this decision is being spread in English as being the best translation from that Spanish title by a priest who does not know Spanish.

Doesn’t it look like blind men making decisions about color hues?

What value should a serious person give to that decision and this propaganda?

Confused thoughts

Our Lady told Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres in an apparition that she wanted to be called Virgen del Buen Suceso or Maria del Buen Suceso or Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso. I will leave the precision on the first part of these titles for another time.

When the document signed by the Rev. Mother Abbess tried to explain the Buen Suceso to which Our Lady referred, it affirmed that she was referring to the Presentation of Our Lord in the Temple. The emphasis is placed on Our Lord and not on Our Lady. With this focus as the starting point, the three central paragraphs of the explanation attempt to show that the Purification of Our Lady is subordinate to the Presentation of Our Lord.


Read the whole Clarification in English here, in Spanish here

I believe that both the emphasis and the term good success (buen suceso) in this document are different from what the Catholic Church habitually teaches.

1. The emphasis: The whole Roman Catholic Church has always considered this Feast of February 2 to be a Marian feast, with the emphasis placed on the Purification of the Virgin Mary and not on the Presentation of Our Lord. Dom Guéranger is quite clear on this regard:

“The Greek Church and the Church of Milan count this feast among those of Our Lord. But the Church of Rome has always considered it as a feast of the Virgin Mary. It is true, it is Our Savior who is this day offered in the Temple, but this offering is the consequence of Our Lady’s Purification. The most ancient of the Western Martyrologies and Calendars call it the Purification. The honor thus paid by the Church to the Mother tends in reality to the greater glory of her Divine Son, for He is the Author and the End of all those prerogatives which we revere and honor in Mary.” (Prosper Guéranger, The Liturgical Year, Fitzwilliam, NH: Loreto Publications, 2000, vol. 3, p. 469)

Dom Guéranger stresses the Church’s long tradition of commemorating the Purification in this way:

“Several learned writers, among whom we may mention Henschenius and Pope Benedict XIV, are of the opinion that this Solemnity was instituted by the Apostles themselves. This much is certain, that it was a long-standing feast even in the fifth century.” (Ibid.)

So, the three principal paragraphs of the document where supposedly the Mother Abbess set forth how we should understand the Presentation in order for us to comprehend the significance of this Feast do not reflect the sentire cum Ecclesia.

2. The buen suceso: To determine what suceso Our Lady was referring to when she spoke to Mother Mariana, I distinguish different perspectives:

A. According to the Jewish Law, every mother who gave birth to a child should stay away from the Temple for a period of 40 days to purify herself from the prosaic conditions of a normal birth under the rule of original sin. After that period, the mother would go to the Temple and end the period of purification by offering either a pair of doves or a lamb, depending on the family’s financial situation. After making that offering the woman was considered pure. As a pure lady, she would present her child to God.


Mary and Joseph at the Temple:
first the Purification, then the Presentation

That purification cannot be understood without parturition; parturition cannot be understood without the birth of a child. Therefore, the suceso upon which the Law was focusing was the birth of the child. This was the buen suceso to be considered, with the necessary consequence of the purification.

B. We know that Our Lady did not need purification because she was born without original sin and her virginal parturition was spared the normal conditions of other mothers. Consequently, she fulfilled the Law as a manifestation of her humility and obedience. For her, the good success was not to be purified since she was never impure, but the successful birth of her Child.

C. In the Liturgical Year, the Feast of the Purification closes the Christmas season. The good news is still the Birth of Christ, this is the good success. If the Presentation were the good success, as the document pretends, the Feast should start a new cycle instead of ending the Christmas cycle. Since this is not the case, the good success should be considered the Birth of Christ.

D. For centuries pregnant women were inspired by grace to have recourse to Our Lady on this Feast Day of February 2, asking her to give them a happy delivery. The Feast of Candlemas, the Feast of Our Lady of Candelária, the Feast of Our Lady of the Light all represent a single devotion under different invocations asking the Virgin Mary on the same day for the same precise favor: to have a successful parturition. This traditional devotion seems to establish that the good success to which Our Lady referred when giving her title to Mother Mariana was the happy Birth of Our Lord.


The good success of Our Lady
was the Birth of Our Lord

Based on these facts, I have to say that it is particularly sad to see that, in a Convent of Conceptionist nuns who should be particularly turned toward the contemplation and admiration of the conception and birth of Christ, the Mother Abbess issued a public document affirming to any and all readers that the reason Our Lady chose the title of good success is not based on the Birth of Christ, but on his Presentation.

This seems to me so awkward that I am led to imagine that either the Mother Abbess did not read with close attention the document she signed or she was obliged to issue it under obedience. Someone else would have given to her a document she did not write for her to sign.

Who would be this person? In the absence of material evidence, juridical tradition leads us to ask: Quo bono? Who benefits from that document? I mentioned three persons acting together: the “good” Arch. Travez, who has obliged those nuns to do many other things against their will, the SSPX agent Liboro who is acting inside the Convent, and Fr. Adam Purdy, who is incessantly repeating in the U.S. the same awkward arguments of that document.

The common goals of these three persons were to expel from the Convent the disciples of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira who were in charge of moving the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from the upper choir to the main altar of the Church, and to take over this devotion in the United States.

To be continued...

Offline Matthew

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  • I knew Fr. Adam Purdy at the seminary -- for 1 year at least. Obviously a Humanities (0 year) seminarian like myself wouldn't have any classes with a 6th year seminarian -- who was already a deacon when I arrived.

    Nevertheless, I did speak to him several times during that year, at various group functions.

    I can say this: he is a typical American when it comes to languages. He only knew English and had an AVERAGE SSPX seminarian ability at Latin. He wasn't one of those seminarians (the "nerds") quoting or speaking Latin for fun. And he didn't know French, Spanish, or any other language -- at least not that I ever heard. He certainly was very comfortable socially -- he was probably one of the popular kids in high school. Actually, now that I think about it, he was more of a "jock" than a "nerd" at the seminary. He certainly had none of the common nerd traits: nervousness, self-consciousness, shyness, awkwardness, over-thinking things, etc. And yes, the seminary has those differences among the students just like any other grouping of 50+ young men (a high school, for example). Now obviously there was no real animosity between such opposites, like in a public high school -- certainly no swirlies, wedgies, or other abuse of the nerds. Some guys loved their sports. Other guys would have preferred to build a computer during recreation, if that had been possible and allowed. I tended to enjoy the company of the "nerds" for some reason...hahaha

    (There were white collar/blue collar and country/city dynamics as well. Not to mention English/metric, America/every other English speaking country, etc. A very horizon broadening experience! I learned that not every family in the developed world stocks peanut butter as a staple. Only the Americans!)

    He was from New York, via St. Mary's, KS if I recall correctly. I don't know his ethnic background (For a white guy he has plenty of melanin and brown eyes) but any ethnic "variety" he has is only in his DNA -- not in his culture, upbringing, language, etc. He's a typical American.

    My view of him as a priest is one thing (and that's problematic at best...he's still with the compromised neo-SSPX, even though he was ordained while +Williamson was rector! He should know better.) but I wouldn't follow him on language matters any more than I'd seek out modesty or fashion advice from the Kardashians.
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    Offline Matthew

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  • This quote says it best:

    So then, we have a decision issued in Spanish by nuns who do not know English on the best and most authentic way a Spanish title should be translated into English; this decision is being spread in English as being the best translation from that Spanish title by a priest who does not know Spanish. 

    Doesn’t it look like blind men making decisions about color hues? 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Fr. Adam Purdy of the SSPX, who tells traditionalists they should say "Our Lady of Buen Suceso" instead of "Our Lady of Good Success", and who publicly appears to be an "expert" on the devotion, does not speak Spanish...
    It fits right in with the whole "buen suceso" Spanglish translation. Thanks for the great article.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    So then, we have a decision issued in Spanish by nuns who do not know English on the best and most authentic way a Spanish title should be translated into English; this decision is being spread in English as being the best translation from that Spanish title by a priest who does not know Spanish. 

    Doesn’t it look like blind men making decisions about color hues? 

    Human nature will argue about anything.  What a waste of time!


    Online Your Friend Colin

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  • Human nature will argue about anything.  What a waste of time!
    I agree. "Buen Suceso, Good Event, Good Success", whatever you choose to say, I'mm sure Our Lady will know that you are addressing her under this specific apparition. With the massive crisis going on in the Church, this argument is so petty,

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • There are many instances of translations where the translation follows the linguistic etymology instead of the actual meaning.  It's especially done when a "loaded" term might require several words in the target language to render it precisely.  So, for the sake of convenience, the term gets carried over etymologically as a speicalized term.

    People just have to know that the term "success" in this context refers to a very specialized meaning.  Done.  End of absurd controversy.

    Offline Markus

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  • The point is that this new Spanglish translation is being foisted on Catholic faithful from the top-down. The Church does not impose upon the faithful documents and memoranda about the "proper" invocations to use in devotions.


    Offline Cera

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  • The point is that this new Spanglish translation is being foisted on Catholic faithful from the top-down. The Church does not impose upon the faithful documents and memoranda about the "proper" invocations to use in devotions.
    Marcus, you are correct the the name

    Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso

    came from the top down. Our Lady chose this name herself in 1610. Unfortunately, Marian Horvat mistranslated the name and neither she nor Atila have the humility to admit their error.

    This has been her name since 1610, not just since the 2017 document signed by the sisters at HER convent. Here is an article from Daily Catholic from 2013.

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Apr/1easttre.htm


    Easter Week 2013
    Friday, April 5, 2013
    Vol. 24, no. 95





     [size=+4]Our Lady of the Great Event [/size]
    [size=+3]Part One[/size]
    [size=+2]by[/size]
    [size=+2]Karl D. Keller [/size]
       At the near approach of the Advent of Our Lord in Bethlehem, even in the womb before He was born, Our Lady, the Ark of the New Covenant, took Him to St. Elizabeth as she carried St. John the Baptist to commission him to be the voice crying out in the wilderness "prepare the way of the Lord." St. John spent his life announcing the coming of the Messias for the benefit of those of good will who awaited Him. In our days, in the early 21st century, I believe we can look back at the apparitions of Our Blessed Mother over the past 500 years and say that she has been fulfilling the role of St. John, preparing us for the second coming of Christ, not as a Babe in a manger, but as the Terrible Judge. And yet, even in His role as Just Judge, He proves that His mercy still burns in His Sacred Heart by sending His Holy Mother to warn us of His coming. The historical events involved in Her apparitions are well known; however, I believe that the circumstances of the apparitions can be just as helpful in revealing Her purpose as the messages that She brings. Some examples follow.

        This title, by which Our Lady describes Herself to Mother Mariana de Jesús Torres, in Spanish is Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso. This is commonly, almost universally, mistranslated as Our Lady of Good Success. However, the Spanish word suceso does not mean success. It means an event, an occurrence. So the correct translation of Our Lady's title is not Our Lady of Good Success but rather Our Lady of the Good or Great Event/Occurrence. This is extremely significant. It refers to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary! The culmination of all the events symbolized in the life of Mother Mariana is that when all seems to be lost, at that moment our Lady will intervene and the Church will be restored - the Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart - the Great Event! This is also the message of Our Lady of Fatima: "In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph!"
        The events in the life of Mother Mariana of the Conceptionist sisters in the convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito are so symbolic that if they had not occurred so long ago, one would think it was an allegory written by a Traditionalist Catholic in the 21st century.
        Our Lady repeatedly warns Mother Mariana that in the middle of the 20th century, a horrible chastisement would befall the Church (cf. Her warning at La Salette and Fatima's Third Secret). She explains in some detail the things that the Church would suffer, saying that the Sacraments would be difficult to find, that there would be the lack of a shepherd to guide the flock, etc. In addition to the direct communication of these warnings in words, the events which Mother Mariana endured and witnessed are equally prophetic. The books I have read discuss the words but I believe the meaning of the sufferings is even stronger.
        Mother Mariana wanted to live her Franciscan vocation by following perfectly the Rule of the Franciscans given by Pope Julian II. That is, she wanted to hold on to the traditions, and not innovate in any way, no matter how insignificant it may appear to be, just as Catholics who want to keep the Faith have always done. There were many in the convent who did not want to follow the rule [keep the Faith] and they conspired to make false reports to the bishop which led to her being put into the convent prison. This worked due to the weakness of the prioress who knew it was wrong but passed on the calumnies anyway. Eventually, all of the nuns who wanted to keep the rule were put into the prison, underground, and unable to assist at the Mass and Divine Office.
        The convent is symbolic of the Church in the mid-20th century. It is taken over by rebellious people, enemies of the rule, who don't want to keep the rule and those who hold on to tradition are placed in an underground prison and denied access to the Sacraments. All of this was done at the command of weak prioress and a bad bishop. The bishop's soul was only saved by the sacrifices of Mother Mariana on his behalf. This happens repeatedly; Mother Mariana and sometimes the other obedient nuns are thrown in prison, then they are released, only to be thrown back in again.
        Mother Mariana actually died more than once and came back after having been shown visions of the horrible times that would come upon the Church in the mid-20th century. One thing she saw was the extinguishing of the sanctuary light in the convent chapel and nobody was able to re-ignite it. Our Lady explains many meanings to Mariana but the most obvious is that the Blessed Sacrament, i.e. the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, would seem to be all but abolished. It is even the same symbolism that Pope Pius XII used when he warned:

        Our Lord promised to be with us always, so there will always be a true Mass somewhere, but it won't be continuous, from the rising of the sun to the setting thereof. The other symbolism that Our Lady does describe of the sanctuary lamp going out is that the Church will be without a pope:

        As always, however, Our Lady gave us a remedy to the evils that would befall the Church, and from our perspective, what has already happened. After St. Gabriel the Archangel appeared to her, Mother Mariana says:
    • The Little Office, so pleasing to Mary most holy. (107)
    • The Little Office which gives me so much pleasure (Our Lady, p. 146)
    • her Guardian Angel, who said, "Spouse of the Lord, why do you fear? You saw Hell! The devil did this to try to impede the recitation of the Little Office. Bitter times will come when the Little Office will be left behind, and the spirit of the Convent weakened. Woe to those who shall have a part in this." On the steps ascending to the choir, she again heard that hideous voice, which cried out: "I shall use all of my power to prevent the praying of this accursed Little Office, for, by it, my forces are weakened and I am destroyed." (p. 65)
       These are just the more striking examples of the importance Our Lady (and Her enemy) places on the recitation of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary! There are countless more throughout the biography of Mother Mariana. What is it about the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary that makes it so special? Why does She ask us with such urgency to pray it? The main message of the life of Mother Mariana and the apparitions and sufferings she endured is that a climactic event would take place in the middle of the 20th century and that those living at that time would be without Sacraments and shepherds. What was it that pleased Her so? What was it that caused Satan to hate it so? And what is the connection between the Little Office and the Great Apostasy that She warned us about that would happen in the middle of the 20th century? With these questions in mind, I made a concerted effort to recite the Little Office prayerfully and meditatively, slowly and with as much attention to the meanings of the psalms, prayers, versicIes that now [meaning the way it was at the time of the beginning of the apostasy, the death of Pope Pius XII, October 9, 1958] compose the Little Office as I could and I began to appreciate much more the comfort to be found amid the psalms, but also that the Church WILL TRIUMPH when the GREAT EVENT happens. I believe that now that we are in the midst of those days, these psalms seem to take on a new meaning; they are filled with comfort, consolation, and beauty, but more than that, they remind us of the coming triumph and the restoration of all things in Christ.
        This has been taken from the introduction to my book about the TRUE name Our Lady chose at Quito in Ecuador when she spoke to Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres and warned her of the coming apostasy in the 20th Century that would last into the 21st Century. In my next installment I shall show how this great event coincides with the Triumph of the Catholic Church. The above is from the introduction to my book about the TRUE name Our Lady chose at Quito, Ecuador when she spoke to Mother Mariana de Jesús Torres and warned her about the apostasy of the 20th century. I encourage all to pray the Little Office and want to inform you that, for less than a cup of coffee and a morning roll, you can obtain the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In these times it is so important to turn to Mary for through her, Christ will triumph!

      

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    Offline Matthew

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  • By the way, I agree with most posters here that this is a complete non-issue.

    I should also clarify: I was not chiming in on the CONTENT of what Fr. Purdy was pushing or teaching. I was only chiming in with what I know about him, and also that I don't look to monoglot Americans for advice on Spanish-->English language translation.

    He could be right for all I know; but it doesn't change the fact he's a poor messenger. Why not have Fr. Adam Portugal (ordained same year) or Fr. Gabriel Magana (ordained two years after him) take up the crusade to change the famous title?

    But ultimately, it doesn't matter. What are we going to argue about next? How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

    The word success in Spanish is "exito". Another false cognate :) English-speakers look at "exito" and assume it has to do with leaving, going out, or exiting right? That's why it's called a false cognate.
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    Offline Seraphina

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  • Matthew, about the woodchuck, how much time does he have to chuck the wood?  And what are the dimensions of the wood the woodchuck is chucking?  What is the age of the woodchuck?  What incentive would there be for the woodchuck to chuck the wood?  Would you PM me with the pertinent information, and I'll give you an estimate.  Would you like to rent the woodchuck to chuck your wood, or would you prefer to purchase him?  


    Online Your Friend Colin

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  •  But ultimately, it doesn't matter. What are we going to argue about next? How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

    Waiting for the thread to be started. . .

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso came from the top down. Our Lady chose this name herself in 1610.

     [size=+4]Our Lady of the Great Event [/size]



       ….in Spanish is Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso. ..So the correct translation of Our Lady's title is not Our Lady of Good Success but rather Our Lady of the Good or Great Event/Occurrence
    What a mess, they can't decide what they want to translate it to. Fr. Purdy's translation is Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification, while the writer above does not mention the Purification and translates it like three other ways that are also different from Fr. Purdy, yet Cera posts it as proof for Fr. Purdy.

    It  appears that Cera does not understand English as well as she thinks. This is not the first time she has posted something in favor of Fr. Purdy, that actually refuted him.
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    Offline Markus

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  • I believe, to respond to Matthew, that this argument is definitely important. It is not as you say a non-issue or unimportant what title is used. We need to have clarity because this devotion is extremely important for our times. The main reason the SSPX is attempting to change the name of the devotion in common parlance is to ensure that people will find SSPX materials when they  search it on the Internet. By taking over this devotion, the SSPX can make bold moves, like trying to make Marcel Lefebvre the great "Prelate" Mother Mariana prophesied. 

    This devotion is of equal importance as Fatima, and yet I don't hear anyone here saying the argument over the Third Secret or the Two Sr. Lucy's is a "non-issue". We must be careful not to fight on the enemy's terms...

    Offline Matthew

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  • I think the issue is this: the devotion is already known as "Our Lady of Good Success" in English-speaking countries. It doesn't matter if that was originally a poor or erroneous translation. That's what everyone's used to. It has the force of custom. We have to stick with it now.

    Maybe changing this title is "practice" to get the stubborn Trads heads more malleable, more amenable to future "changes"? Hmmmm?

    They have a darn good excuse on this one: the original translation was awful. But it gets Trads warmed up for A) obeying/following the SSPX, B) changing something they are very used to, etc.
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