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Author Topic: Old Mass vs. New Mass  (Read 5024 times)

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Old Mass vs. New Mass
« on: April 14, 2015, 06:38:21 AM »
http://www.traditionalmass.org/versus/

 Old Mass vs. New Mass
Compare...
Traditional Latin Mass
   With ...
Modern Mass at your parish
Atmosphere of Reverent Worship:
Peaceful, otherworldly atmosphere. Emphasis on individual "lifting his heart & mind to God." Members of congregation direct attention to God, not each other.

   Social, Classroom, Entertainment Atmosphere:
Constant standing, sitting, amplified noise; atmosphere like a public meeting. Emphasis on "instruction." Socializing in church before & after service, and handshaking during.

Profound Reverence for Real Presence:
Sixteen genuflections. The hands of the priest alone touch the consecrated host. Communion given only on tongue.

   Indifference, Irreverence towards Real Presence:
Only three genuflections required. Lay men & women distribute communion. Communion given in hand - a practice protestants introduced to deny Christ's Real Presence.

Fidelity to Catholic Doctrine:
Over the course of a year, presents all facets of Catholic doctrine.

   Systematic Omission of Catholic Doctrines:
New prayers systematically omit references to hell, judgement, punishment for sin, merits of the Saints, the one true Church, the souls of the departed & miracles.

Antiquity:
Bulk of Sunday prayers & their arrangement goes back at least to 300s and 400s AD. Canon essentially the same since St. Ambrose (d. 397).

   Novelty:
Old Sunday prayers omitted or stripped of doctrines, and rearranged in 1960s.  Only 17% of old prayers remain. Chunks of ancient Canon are now  "optional." The words of consecration, Christ's own words "For you and for many" are changed. Three substitute "Canons" invented & introduced in 1960s, and still more invented later.

Stability:
Everything regulated by precise laws to protect purity of worship and doctrine.

   Constant Change:
Options, options and more options. Individual priests & parish liturgy committees get to pick, drop or invent texts to push what they think people should believe.

Priest is Sacrificer:
Priest faces tabernacle, cross and altar (symbolically toward God). Priest performs all the actions & recites all the prayers of the Mass.    Priest is "President", Actor:
Priest faces people instead of symbolically "toward God." Priest sits off to side. His functions given away to lay men and women.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Old Mass vs. New Mass
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 08:42:52 AM »
90% of these could be written off as implementation abuses.  If, however, a validly-ordained priest were to say the NO Mass using the Canon #1 (almost identical to the Tridentine Canon) using the proper "for many" translation of the words of consecration, I don't see how the New Mass would not be valid.


Old Mass vs. New Mass
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 11:43:02 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
90% of these could be written off as implementation abuses.  If, however, a validly-ordained priest were to say the NO Mass using the Canon #1 (almost identical to the Tridentine Canon) using the proper "for many" translation of the words of consecration, I don't see how the New Mass would not be valid.


In the New Order, the intention at the Offertory is specifically perverted.  In the traditional Mass, the Offertory specifically identifies that what is being offered is the True Victim (Note:  That the word "Hostia" in Latin--the thing being offered--is generally translated as "Host".  The earliest definition of the English word "Host" is a sacrificial victim.  The term later came to be also defined as the circular communion bread).  In the New Order, the Offertory specifically identifies the thing being offered is "The work of human hands".  The priest, validly ordained or not, is publicly communicating his intention NOT to offer to God the True Victim, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, but mere bread and wine.

The New Order is a Protestant Service.  If a validly ordained Catholic priest could, in the New Order service, truly bring about transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, then he could also do this using almost any Protestant Last Supper service since these use valid "words" of consecration as well, which is an absurdity!

The New Order Service, by its very nature, changes the priest's intention.  He is no longer intending to do as the Church does in the Sacrifice of the Mass by offering the Sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  He is intending to offer bread and wine, the work of human hands, the sacrifice of Cain, to God.

This change, by the way, was the specific intention, according to all sources, of Montini who wanted a service that the Protestants could accept.  He got what he wanted.  Protestants actually use the New Order Service.  My son was in boy scouts for a time and a meeting was held in the hall of a Methodist church.  I was sitting in the semi-circular worship space waiting and took a gander at the hymnal, which had three versions of their Last Supper service in it.  Needless to say, I was surprised to find, with only a few alterations, the English Novus Ordo.  And to eliminate all doubt, the copyright page of the hymnal specifically told me that this section was copyrighted by the ICEL (International Commission of English in the Liturgy, a Conciliar Catholic organization).

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Old Mass vs. New Mass
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 12:00:36 PM »
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Ladislaus
90% of these could be written off as implementation abuses.  If, however, a validly-ordained priest were to say the NO Mass using the Canon #1 (almost identical to the Tridentine Canon) using the proper "for many" translation of the words of consecration, I don't see how the New Mass would not be valid.


In the New Order, the intention at the Offertory is specifically perverted.  In the traditional Mass, the Offertory specifically identifies that what is being offered is the True Victim (Note:  That the word "Hostia" in Latin--the thing being offered--is generally translated as "Host".  The earliest definition of the English word "Host" is a sacrificial victim.  The term later came to be also defined as the circular communion bread).  In the New Order, the Offertory specifically identifies the thing being offered is "The work of human hands".  The priest, validly ordained or not, is publicly communicating his intention NOT to offer to God the True Victim, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, but mere bread and wine.


Except that BEFORE the consecration you do have bread, the "work of human hands", and the sacrificial intent is absolutely clear and evident in the Roman Canon (Novus Ordo Canon #1).

Quote
The New Order is a Protestant Service.  If a validly ordained Catholic priest could, in the New Order service, truly bring about transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, then he could also do this using almost any Protestant Last Supper service since these use valid "words" of consecration as well, which is an absurdity!


Last time I checked the Protestant services do not use the Roman Canon or anything like it.

Quote
The New Order Service, by its very nature, changes the priest's intention.  He is no longer intending to do as the Church does in the Sacrifice of the Mass by offering the Sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  He is intending to offer bread and wine, the work of human hands, the sacrifice of Cain, to God.


See above regarding the Offertory.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Old Mass vs. New Mass
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 12:22:00 PM »
Just look at this here:

http://www.latinliturgy.com/OrdinaryFormMassText.pdf

If one uses the Roman Canon it resembles little more than a truncated version of the Tridentine Mass.  I'm not talking about any of the Propers now, but just the Common here.  Now say this in Latin, face away from the people (the rubrics actually imply that this is the case), have people receive Communion kneeling and on the tongue, eliminate the eucharistic ministers and lay readers, etc., add Gregorian chant.  Suddenly it's not a huge stretch from the Tridentine Mass.  Yes, the biggest change is in the Offertory, but it's not enough to invalidate the Mass.  Eastern Liturgies don't have an offertory that resembles the Tridentine Rite too closely either.  But the sacrificial intent is clearly obvious in the Roman Canon.