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Author Topic: Official rules for lent?  (Read 3096 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Official rules for lent?
« on: January 25, 2024, 11:41:00 PM »
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    • Does any one have the BINDING rules for LENT? I am looking for both the pre-Vatican 2 rules and the current vatican 2 rules. Only need to know the things that must be done so I can build my lent around that.

    Also regarding meals. If you are allowed to have 1 meal and 2 small meals less than the 1 meal, what define this? E.g Calories? Feeling of being full?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #1 on: January 26, 2024, 06:28:15 AM »
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    • Your request is actually quite complicated!

    The universal laws for penance changed several times between 1800 and 1967. Further, the particular laws have always varied from locality to locality. Example:  Under the current Novus Ordo law, abstinence from flesh meat on Friday binds under pain of sin only on Fridays of Lent in the USA, whilst abstinence binds under pain of sin on every Friday of the year in England and Wales. Another example: Until the early 20th century, abstinence from flesh meat was binding on Wednesdays in addition to Fridays in England and Wales.

    Here is a summary of the current rules in the USA according to the 1967 legislation and the 1983 Code and filtered through the SSPX:

    https://sspx.org/en/fast-abstinence-rules
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #2 on: January 26, 2024, 06:39:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on January 26, 2024, 06:28:15 AM
    Your request is actually quite complicated!

    The universal laws for penance changed several times between 1800 and 1967. Further, the particular laws have always varied from locality to locality. Example:  Under the current Novus Ordo law, abstinence from flesh meat on Friday binds under pain of sin only on Fridays of Lent in the USA, whilst abstinence binds under pain of sin on every Friday of the year in England and Wales. Another example: Until the early 20th century, abstinence from flesh meat was binding on Wednesdays in addition to Fridays in England and Wales.

    Here is a summary of the current rules in the USA according to the 1967 legislation and the 1983 Code and filtered through the SSPX:

    https://sspx.org/en/fast-abstinence-rules
    I live in Australia if that helps. I thought everyday of Lent was both fasting and abstinence?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #3 on: January 26, 2024, 08:16:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on January 26, 2024, 06:39:06 AM
    I live in Australia if that helps. I thought everyday of Lent was both fasting and abstinence?
    I was speaking only of abstinence.

    Everyday in Lent, except Sundays, has been historically penitential days, normatively in involving fasting at which one could take flesh meat at the main meal, excepting, of course, Fridays, vigils, or as observed by local law or custom,  e.g., meatless Wednesdays in England and Wales before the 20th century.

    Now our Latin practices are not the same as Greek practices. In fact, Greeks, including those not in schism, have in the past accused Latins of both laxity in penance and of engaging in penance when, in their practice and understanding, one ought not to or in failing to practices penances on days when one should.

    As I stated earlier, the penance question is VERY complicated. It is not merely:  What did great grandma do? Although I think that is qurstion and its answer is probably the most pragmatic way to proceed.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #4 on: January 26, 2024, 08:22:29 AM »
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    • I have so many food allergies and other metabolic issues that I practice abstinence and fasting on an almost daily basis for health reasons. I'm finding that the laws of fasting and abstinence imposed by the church are very easy for me so I have to look for additional forms of penance.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #5 on: January 26, 2024, 08:25:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on January 26, 2024, 06:28:15 AM
    Your request is actually quite complicated!

    Right, especially since the question dovetails with whether or not you think various putative Popes have been illegitimate and/or doubtful.  In case of doubt, the law doesn't bind, so I think that could ease people's consciences from scruples.  Under the variations of probabilism, we're not required to accept the "most strict" possible set of rules.  I tend to just go with the last state of the rules under Pius XII along with what the US bishops did where there was some latitude.  If I recall, the last such changes came in about 1957.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #6 on: January 26, 2024, 08:35:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on January 26, 2024, 08:22:29 AM
    I have so many food allergies and other metabolic issues that I practice abstinence and fasting on an almost daily basis for health reasons. I'm finding that the laws of fasting and abstinence imposed by the church are very easy for me so I have to look for additional forms of penance.

    This is exactly what we should do: do penance.

    If giving up TV is easy for you because you don't watch TV, well guess what? That would be a lousy penance for you. Same for giving up smoking if you don't smoke, or giving up alcoholic beverages if you don't drink such beverages.

    The idea is to do some penance for our souls' sake. The difficulty is only good because it requires an increase in charity to perform the action. That's why all our penance has to be done in the right spirit. You can't increase charity while nourishing contrary vices like pride, vainglory, hatred, scorn, etc. Just remember, God sees the heart, and you can't fool God. So don't try. "Be honest with yourself, be honest with God."
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #7 on: January 26, 2024, 12:29:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on January 25, 2024, 11:41:00 PM
    Does any one have the BINDING rules for LENT? I am looking for both the pre-Vatican 2 rules and the current vatican 2 rules. Only need to know the things that must be done so I can build my lent around that.

    Also regarding meals. If you are allowed to have 1 meal and 2 small meals less than the 1 meal, what define this? E.g Calories? Feeling of being full?
    Remember the spirit of the law. Whatever is a normal meal for you, that is your main meal. Dont enlarge it just so it will be bigger than the 2 smaller meals, and don't think it necessary to make use of the smaller meals. They are there only if you need them. I've heard it recommended that a smaller meal be a cup of soup, and/or a piece of toast maybe with some butter if you are really hungry.

    I find it easier just to avoid the smaller meals, or at least put the first one off until late in the day, or I can find it difficult to stop eating for several hours after just a small amount.

    Anyone know what they do at the SSPX seminary? I think it's 1 slice of bread for breakfast, regular lunch, and a non-chunky soup or small portion of blended recooked weekly leftovers.

    A good read is the epistle from Friday after ash Wednesday (Isaias 58:1-9)

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #8 on: January 26, 2024, 07:03:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on January 25, 2024, 11:41:00 PM
    Does any one have the BINDING rules for LENT? I am looking for both the pre-Vatican 2 rules and the current vatican 2 rules. Only need to know the things that must be done so I can build my lent around that.

    Also regarding meals. If you are allowed to have 1 meal and 2 small meals less than the 1 meal, what define this? E.g Calories? Feeling of being full?
    Regarding the two smaller portions that are permitted, "frustulum" and "collation", that should not add up to a full meal, St Alphonsus gives as a guideline 2oz and 8oz. When my family became traditional, we used to use kitchen scales to weigh our portions to give us an idea of what was considered legitimate. However, don't become scrupulous like me... they are only guidelines!
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #9 on: January 26, 2024, 09:44:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 26, 2024, 08:25:22 AM
    Right, especially since the question dovetails with whether or not you think various putative Popes have been illegitimate and/or doubtful.  In case of doubt, the law doesn't bind, so I think that could ease people's consciences from scruples.  Under the variations of probabilism, we're not required to accept the "most strict" possible set of rules.  I tend to just go with the last state of the rules under Pius XII along with what the US bishops did where there was some latitude.  If I recall, the last such changes came in about 1957.
    What rules would those be? And do they apply to Australia? I will most likely be doing more than the bare minimum but I am concerned about 'breaking the rules' so to speak as I do not believe Vatican 2 to be valid I want to at least follow the pre-v2 rules.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #10 on: January 27, 2024, 07:23:38 AM »
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #11 on: January 27, 2024, 07:40:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on January 26, 2024, 08:22:29 AM
    I have so many food allergies and other metabolic issues that I practice abstinence and fasting on an almost daily basis for health reasons. I'm finding that the laws of fasting and abstinence imposed by the church are very easy for me so I have to look for additional forms of penance.
    I don't have food allergies, but I don't normally eat that much for my breakfast or my lunch. So, cutting down for Lent proves to be a challenge for me. The big thing for me to cut is the in-between eating.
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    Offline B from A

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #12 on: January 27, 2024, 07:53:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 26, 2024, 07:03:59 PM
    Regarding the two smaller portions that are permitted, "frustulum" and "collation", that should not add up to a full meal, St Alphonsus gives as a guideline 2oz and 8oz. 

    Do you mean the portion should be between 2oz and 8 oz, or 2oz for the first & 8oz for the second?  :confused:
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #13 on: January 28, 2024, 07:49:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 27, 2024, 07:23:38 AM
    Here are the rules as of Pius XII:

    Lent: Laws of Fast & Abstinence - St. Michael's Parish (stmichaels.org)
    On days of fast, only one full meal is allowed and it should not be taken before noon.

    Is this a rule we must obey or just a guideline? Because on days I work I need to eat before 3pm as I do afternoon shifts.


    Pic is from mhfm website, I  think they also do pre vatican 2 Pius 12.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Official rules for lent?
    « Reply #14 on: January 28, 2024, 09:17:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on January 28, 2024, 07:49:25 PM
    On days of fast, only one full meal is allowed and it should not be taken before noon.

    Is this a rule we must obey or just a guideline? Because on days I work I need to eat before 3pm as I do afternoon shifts.


    Pic is from mhfm website, I  think they also do pre vatican 2 Pius 12.
    I just checked my angelus missal, both the 1983 code and the old rules are in there, i even forgot that days of fast are always partial abstinence... I don't think I ever had meat more than once and not in the main meal.

    An old person who is no longer bound by the law of fasting, do they still have to do partial abstinence on days of fast?
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