Author Topic: Of not being in communion with Heretics (Read 1122 times)

Pelele · « **on:** December 02, 2013, 12:26:49 AM »

What are the most authoritative statements in this regard, besides Titus 3:10?

Is there any explicit teaching saying Catholics cannot be in communion with heretics?

I know this is of course obvious and it goes without saying, but you know how novus ordo people are, they utterly do not have any Catholic sense left, well the ones im dealing with at least.

poche · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2013, 09:39:06 AM »

It is not permitted to recieve Holy Communion in a non Catholic Church.

soulguard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2013, 01:19:32 PM »

Quote from: Pelele

What are the most authoritative statements in this regard, besides Titus 3:10?

Is there any explicit teaching saying Catholics cannot be in communion with heretics?

I know this is of course obvious and it goes without saying, but you know how novus ordo people are, they utterly do not have any Catholic sense left, well the ones im dealing with at least.

The Dimonds debated with a man from Norway ( or sweeden? ) who I think was called Suengins. You can search their youtube channel for this debate.
This was a debate that I felt the Dimond's lost, but they published it anyway. Their opponent held the position that it was not lawful to go into the meeting houses of heretics, while the Dimonds said that they should take advantage of the sacraments wherever they can. Lots of church teaching quotes in that debate if you're interested.

Not advertising the Dimonds, but this debate is a good source of quotes from popes and councils on the matter. I like their debates and learn a lot from what is said. Sorry if I got the name wrong, but you'll just have to search for it.

Matto · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2013, 03:04:05 PM »

Quote from: poche

It is not permitted to recieve Holy Communion in a non Catholic Church.

poche, I thought you were Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches and I believe the canon law says (this is from memory) that Catholics can go to non-Catholic Churches and receive communion there (at least to those non-Catholic Churches that have a valid sacrament)

Pelele · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2013, 03:09:55 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Quote from: Pelele
What are the most authoritative statements in this regard, besides Titus 3:10?

Is there any explicit teaching saying Catholics cannot be in communion with heretics?

I know this is of course obvious and it goes without saying, but you know how novus ordo people are, they utterly do not have any Catholic sense left, well the ones im dealing with at least.

The Dimonds debated with a man from Norway ( or sweeden? ) who I think was called Suengins. You can search their youtube channel for this debate.
This was a debate that I felt the Dimond's lost, but they published it anyway. Their opponent held the position that it was not lawful to go into the meeting houses of heretics, while the Dimonds said that they should take advantage of the sacraments wherever they can. Lots of church teaching quotes in that debate if you're interested.

Not advertising the Dimonds, but this debate is a good source of quotes from popes and councils on the matter. I like their debates and learn a lot from what is said. Sorry if I got the name wrong, but you'll just have to search for it.

I heard that debate and it was against a guy called Eli, not Sungenis. Bob Sungenis is a defender of the Novus Ordo.

The one they had the debate with is one of three "monks" who operate various websites, stbirgitta.com and doomsdaytube.com and others that link to the same one.

I don't think they lost at all, on the contrary, Eli just sounded like an automaton repeating the same things over and over again. Plus he had a really bad accent and bad pronunciation and it was hard to listen to him drone on and on.

Not that I agree with the Dimonds on going to heretics for the sacraments of course.

I know all the quotes from that debate and I was looking for others in addition to those. I think actually there are only 2 quotes that directly say you can't pray with heretics from that debate.

Pelele · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2013, 03:12:09 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: poche
It is not permitted to recieve Holy Communion in a non Catholic Church.

poche, I thought you were Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo teaches and I believe the canon law says (this is from memory) that Catholics can go to non-Catholic Churches and receive communion there (at least to those non-Catholic Churches that have a valid sacrament)

You bet it teaches that, it even teaches that you can lend so-called "churches" to heretics so they can perform their heretical "services" if they have no place to do it.

mobius · « **Reply #6 on:** December 03, 2013, 12:23:59 AM »

I typed "communicatio in sacris" in Amazon this showed up

OHCA · « **Reply #7 on:** December 03, 2013, 02:26:26 AM »

Quote from: poche

It is not permitted to recieve Holy Communion in a non Catholic Church.

I would not refer to what non-Catholic churches offer as "Holy Communion." I realize that some Orthodox & maybe some Old Catholics have the ability, but by far most non-Cathoic churches do not.

Btw--why do we just read over the words of the Pater Noster, "lead us not into temptation," without taking those words to heart? Is it not a temptation to subject ourselves to heretical sermons, heretical services, heretical "fellowship," etc.? We beg God not to lead us into temptation, yet we knowingly, premeditatedly, voluntarily, expose ourselves to temptation without any qualms?!?!

Are you from pseudo-CAF, Poche? I can't think of a single time that you've been the voice of sound true Catholicism in opposition to modernist conciliardom. Do you actually enjoy our company? Are you intrigued by us? Are you trying to save us? Do you think your occasional comments in the vein of "Frank hasn't said we can take communion from the baptists yet" and "Frank hasn't CLEARLY UNEQUIVOCALLY declared that Christ was merely a prophet yet" are going to convince us that nothing is amiss and that all is well in Rome?

I am not going on offense against you--just trying to figure out what makes you tick in terms of your interest in CathInfo. I know that I would have ripped the last hair out of my bald head if I had spent as much time on CAF or FE as you spend here. In the words with which I previously interrupted the concecration to greet my neighbors, peace be with you.

Pelele · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2013, 11:06:54 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

The Dimonds debated with a man from Norway ( or sweeden? ) who I think was called Suengins. You can search their youtube channel for this debate.

This was a debate that I felt the Dimond's lost, but they published it anyway. Their opponent held the position that it was not lawful to go into the meeting houses of heretics, while the Dimonds said that they should take advantage of the sacraments wherever they can. Lots of church teaching quotes in that debate if you're interested.

Not advertising the Dimonds, but this debate is a good source of quotes from popes and councils on the matter. I like their debates and learn a lot from what is said. Sorry if I got the name wrong, but you'll just have to search for it.

Quote

Council of Carthage: "One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: let him be excommunicated."

III Council of Constantinople, 680-681: “If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the ѕуηαgσgυє of the Jєωs or the meetinghouses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion [excommunicated]. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.”

I think these are the 2 main quotes, but i havent been able to find any of them online, I went to papalencyclicals.net and Denzinger and there's nothing.

Are they fake? Where exactly are they found?

Jehanne · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2013, 07:15:14 PM »

Quote

This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise? For here there is question of defending revealed truth. Jesus Christ sent His Apostles into the whole world in order that they might permeate all nations with the Gospel faith, and, lest they should err, He willed beforehand that they should be taught by the Holy Ghost:[15] has then this doctrine of the Apostles completely vanished away, or sometimes been obscured, in the Church, whose ruler and defense is God Himself? If our Redeemer plainly said that His Gospel was to continue not only during the times of the Apostles, but also till future ages, is it possible that the object of faith should in the process of time become so obscure and uncertain, that it would be necessary to-day to tolerate opinions which are even incompatible one with another? If this were true, we should have to confess that the coming of the Holy Ghost on the Apostles, and the perpetual indwelling of the same Spirit in the Church, and the very preaching of Jesus Christ, have several centuries ago, lost all their efficacy and use, to affirm which would be blasphemy. But the Only-begotten Son of God, when He commanded His representatives to teach all nations, obliged all men to give credence to whatever was made known to them by "witnesses preordained by God,"[16] and also confirmed His command with this sanction: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned."[17] These two commands of Christ, which must be fulfilled, the one, namely, to teach, and the other to believe, cannot even be understood, unless the Church proposes a complete and easily understood teaching, and is immune when it thus teaches from all danger of erring. In this matter, those also turn aside from the right path, who think that the deposit of truth such laborious trouble, and with such lengthy study and discussion, that a man's life would hardly suffice to find and take possession of it; as if the most merciful God had spoken through the prophets and His Only-begotten Son merely in order that a few, and those stricken in years, should learn what He had revealed through them, and not that He might inculcate a doctrine of faith and morals, by which man should be guided through the whole course of his moral life.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

poche · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2013, 10:37:28 PM »

would not refer to what non-Catholic churches offer as "Holy Communion." I realize that some Orthodox & maybe some Old Catholics have the ability, but by far most non-Cathoic churches do not.

Whatever it is that they do it is not permitted that you participate by recieving their "communion."

poche · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2013, 10:39:13 PM »

Btw--why do we just read over the words of the Pater Noster, "lead us not into temptation," without taking those words to heart? Is it not a temptation to subject ourselves to heretical sermons, heretical services, heretical "fellowship," etc.? We beg God not to lead us into temptation, yet we knowingly, premeditatedly, voluntarily, expose ourselves to temptation without any qualms?!?!

What we should be trying to do is to figure out how we can lead them away from darkness.