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Author Topic: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic  (Read 819 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
« on: May 25, 2021, 11:19:59 AM »
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    • Imagine a huge group in the Church had a council in the year X, refused to invoke the Holy Ghost, and ended up deciding to completely change everything about the Catholic Church. From then on, they never reference anything before the year X, except maybe to deride and criticize it. All popes after that council act as if the church they belong to literally began in year X. The popes after this council only refer to each other -- never to the popes before the council.

    What would you call that new church? A heretical sect? A new church in schism with the Catholic Church?

    Obviously, this is not exactly hypothetical. It actually happened. The year X was 1965, and the new sect is the "conciliar" church, or the Church of the (Vatican 2) Council.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2021, 11:50:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 25, 2021, 11:19:59 AM
    Imagine a huge group in the Church had a council in the year X, refused to invoke the Holy Ghost, and ended up deciding to completely change everything about the Catholic Church. From then on, they never reference anything before the year X, except maybe to deride and criticize it. All popes after that council act as if the church they belong to literally began in year X. The popes after this council only refer to each other -- never to the popes before the council.

    What would you call that new church? A heretical sect? A new church in schism with the Catholic Church?

    Obviously, this is not exactly hypothetical. It actually happened. The year X was 1965, and the new sect is the "conciliar" church, or the Church of the (Vatican 2) Council.
    I get what you're saying but my question is, according to the 1917 code of Canon law, schism is rejecting communion with the Pope or the members of the church subject to the Pope.
    Based on that, I simply do not understand how it makes logical sense to refer to the novus ordo as schizmatic, however understandable the impulse might be, and whatever the archbishop might have said about it.
    Call it heretical. Call it scandalous. Call it sacrilegious. But I don't see how calling it schizmatic doesn't implicitly admit Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology.  Please explain what I'm missing.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #2 on: May 25, 2021, 12:39:20 PM »
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    • I prefer to recognize this neo-church as heretical and apostate, rather than schismatic.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #3 on: May 25, 2021, 01:06:10 PM »
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    • The Conciliar Church has cut itself off from the Catholic Church of All Time. How is that not schism?
    It has created a whole new religion, and called it "Catholic". 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #4 on: May 25, 2021, 04:25:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 25, 2021, 01:06:10 PM
    The Conciliar Church has cut itself off from the Catholic Church of All Time. How is that not schism?
    It has created a whole new religion, and called it "Catholic".
    I tend to agree with the others.  Every other church (other than the Orthodox) cut themselves off from the Catholic Church, but they are not considered schismatic.  They are heretics.

    Furthermore, if the Conciliar Church cut itself off from the Catholic Church, doesn't that mean that the leader of the Conciliar Church (ie. the conciliar pope) has also cut himself off from the Catholic Church?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #5 on: May 25, 2021, 04:31:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 25, 2021, 04:25:39 PM
    Furthermore, if the Conciliar Church cut itself off from the Catholic Church, doesn't that mean that the leader of the Conciliar Church (ie. the conciliar pope) has also cut himself off from the Catholic Church?
    Rational logic would certainly say so.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #6 on: May 25, 2021, 07:15:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 25, 2021, 11:19:59 AM

    What would you call that new church? 

    Great Apostasy.

    Mystery of iniquity revealed.

    Abomination of desolation.

    Church of the Pastor stultus.

    Hosts of the Antichrist.

    The rather unmystical body of Antichrist.

    Last trial.

    Days of Wrath.

    Days of visitation.

    Days of tribulation.

    If you're in Juda, time to leave.

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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #7 on: May 25, 2021, 10:01:48 PM »
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    • Counter church of satan ( Archbishop Fulton Sheen).

    Whore of Babylon

    Seat of anti Christ 

    Vatican II


    An embarrassment...
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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #8 on: May 25, 2021, 10:16:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on May 25, 2021, 10:01:48 PM
    Counter church of satan ( Archbishop Fulton Sheen).

    Sheen called them "Counter church of satan"?
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #9 on: May 26, 2021, 06:19:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on May 25, 2021, 10:16:45 PM
    Sheen called them "Counter church of satan"?

    No, Sheen predicted or prophesied that there would come a “counter church of Satan,” but he didn’t think “them” was it. He was a prophet, but unlike Daniel, the lion apparently ate him. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #10 on: May 26, 2021, 08:33:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 25, 2021, 11:19:59 AM
    From then on, they never reference anything before the year X, except maybe to deride and criticize it. .
    ...
    Except, the dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II heavily reference the church Fathers, St. Thomas, and previous popes and councils. So the characterization of what happened with Vatican II is off.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #11 on: May 26, 2021, 09:54:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on May 26, 2021, 08:33:47 AM
    Except, the dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II heavily reference the church Fathers, St. Thomas, and previous popes and councils. So the characterization of what happened with Vatican II is off.
    Some years ago I looked up about a half a dozen references from a few of the V2 docuмents and found that none of the pre-V2 references had anything whatsoever to do with the V2 'teaching'. Fr. Hesse talks of this very thing in one of his talks. 
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Objectively Speaking, heretical and or schismatic
    « Reply #12 on: May 26, 2021, 10:36:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on May 26, 2021, 06:19:13 AM
    No, Sheen predicted or prophesied that there would come a “counter church of Satan,” but he didn’t think “them” was it. He was a prophet, but unlike Daniel, the lion apparently ate him.
    That's basically what happened to all Catholics for most of the decade following the Council until Paul VI banned the Mass. They were giving the assent of faith to his teachings because he, at least appeared to be, the Pope as ALL CATHOLICS HAVE DONE BEFORE THE COUNCIL. Which is why the changes were able to be made without widespread alarm from pious Catholics. Sheen, I would say, was among these blinded to the eclipse of the Church.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]
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