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Author Topic: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism  (Read 6907 times)

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Offline 40494049

Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #195 on: May 29, 2026, 05:44:31 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on May 29, 2026, 02:43:25 PM
For people who actually care about the truth (unlike those with false piety).

The Vatican II Popes could be considered to be mere material heretics until they sinned against the commandment "Thou shalt not have another god before me". Because this is part of natural law, we can presume that anyone who sins against this commandment is not a material heretic but a formal one.

And I am being generous by pretending the Vatican II Popes before then were merely material heretics.
I never thought of it like that. Could you back this up with a quote about the intention of someone who violates the first commandment?

How do you know they intend to violate the commandment? What if they intend to do what they deem is in conformity with Catholic teaching? 
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Offline Lazarus

Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #196 on: May 29, 2026, 06:04:19 PM »
Quote from: 40494049 on May 29, 2026, 05:44:31 PM
I never thought of it like that. Could you back this up with a quote about the intention of someone who violates the first commandment?

How do you know they intend to violate the commandment? What if they intend to do what they deem is in conformity with Catholic teaching?
We can say a lot of things about Bergoglio, but he was very well learned.

https://seniorclassproducts.com/blogs/general/pope-francis-and-his-educational-journey?srsltid=AfmBOor3j1jMcpGuAEcO2aIplK_rZCS-d50VkL_7c2_1pJdvz3bal6hx

He was a chemist, had a master's degree in philosophy and the equivalent of a bachelor in theology.

The question is : can invincible ignorance apply to Bergoglio? That is what would be required for Bergoglio to err (believe in heresies) without fault of his own.

According to St Thomas Aquinas :

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2094.htm

The natural law is the same in all men, it cannot be changed, and it cannot be abolished.


"Reply to Objection 1. Sin blots out the law of nature in particular cases, not universally, except perchance in regard to the secondary precepts of the natural law, in the way stated above.

Reply to Objection 2. Although grace is more efficacious than nature, yet nature is more essential to man, and therefore more enduring.

Reply to Objection 3. This argument is true of the secondary precepts of the natural law, against which some legislators have framed certain enactments which are unjust."

The law against idolatry is a primary precept of natural law. It is not secondary natural law.

Edit : I would like to say more, but the message got posted by error and I won't have the time to finish it fully when editing it. 


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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #197 on: Yesterday at 05:33:41 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on May 29, 2026, 02:43:25 PM
For people who actually care about the truth (unlike those with false piety).

The Vatican II Popes could be considered to be mere material heretics until they sinned against the commandment "Thou shalt not have another god before me". Because this is part of natural law, we can presume that anyone who sins against this commandment is not a material heretic but a formal one.

And I am being generous by pretending the Vatican II Popes before then were merely material heretics.
Again, our knowledge of the popes' sins in no way qualifies any of us to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected. Yes or no?

Can you at least admit that it is nothing more than your opinion and can never be anything but an opinion that popes are not popes?


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Online Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #198 on: Yesterday at 08:51:31 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on May 29, 2026, 02:43:25 PM
For people who actually care about the truth (unlike those with false piety).

The Vatican II Popes could be considered to be mere material heretics until they sinned against the commandment "Thou shalt not have another god before me". Because this is part of natural law, we can presume that anyone who sins against this commandment is not a material heretic but a formal one.

And I am being generous by pretending the Vatican II Popes before then were merely material heretics.
Formal heresy can only be declared by an authority.  It’s where a superior declares an inferior as wrong.  

a St Bellarmine and the top theologians of his day debated non-stop about how the Church could defend against a heretic pope.  The answers were a) imperfect council b) college of cardinals.  

There is no reality where the laity, who are not even considered “part of the church” (ie not clerics) can say or do anything about the pope, much less decide on a legal matter about him or depose him.  Laity have 0 authority and 0 status under canon law.  Our opinion is meaningless.  
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Offline Lazarus

Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #199 on: Yesterday at 02:40:07 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 08:51:31 AM
Formal heresy can only be declared by an authority.  It’s where a superior declares an inferior as wrong. 

a St Bellarmine and the top theologians of his day debated non-stop about how the Church could defend against a heretic pope.  The answers were a) imperfect council b) college of cardinals. 

There is no reality where the laity, who are not even considered “part of the church” (ie not clerics) can say or do anything about the pope, much less decide on a legal matter about him or depose him.  Laity have 0 authority and 0 status under canon law.  Our opinion is meaningless. 
You misunderstand the difference between a legal statement and a statement regarding the truth on what someone is.

Imagine if you see a criminal committing murder and you know who it is. Imagine that you have video evidence with his face on it that he committed murder. 
But that man is very powerful, he is the leader of a mafia gang, he corrupted the judges and pays off witnesses or murders them so they cannot testify. 

You have no authority to send him to jail, but you can testify and tell other people that this person is dangerous and is a murderer. As long as that man isn't officially arrested and prosecuted the law assumes he is innocent. But you know and all your community knows that he is truly a murderer. God knows he is a murderer. It doesnt matter that he corrupted the legal authorities, in the eyes of God his sins still condemn him. 

We do not have the legal authority to depose a false Pope, you are right. But we do not need to have him legally deposed in order to know that he is a heretic and an anti-Pope.

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