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Author Topic: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism  (Read 6530 times)

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Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2026, 04:13:23 PM »
Please give me the Papal condemnations verse and chapter of the neo modernist errors of Vatican II.

PIUS X'S CONDEMNATIONS VS. VATICAN II TEACHINGS
I. ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS X AND HIS PREDECESSORS
A. On Evolution of Dogma
Lamentabili Sane (1907), Proposition 21 (CONDEMNED):
Quote
"Revelation, constituting the object of Catholic faith, was not completed with the Apostles."
Lamentabili Sane, Proposition 22 (CONDEMNED):
Quote
"The dogmas which the Church presents as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but an interpretation of religious facts which the human mind has acquired by laborious effort."
B. On Religious Liberty
Quanta Cura (Pius IX, 1864) condemns as ERROR:
Quote
"Liberty of conscience and of worship is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed and guaranteed by law in every correctly established society."
Syllabus of Errors, Proposition 77 (CONDEMNED):
Quote
"In our age it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all others."
C. On False Ecuмenism
Mortalium Animos (Pius XI, 1928):
Quote
"Conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged... at which all without distinction, unbelievers of every kind as well as Christians, are invited to join in the discussion... Such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy."

II. WHAT VATICAN II TEACHES
1. DIGNITATIS HUMANAE (Religious Liberty)
§2: "This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom... all men are to be immune from coercion... so that in religious matters no one is forced to act against his conscience nor restrained from acting according to his conscience, whether privately or publicly, alone or in association with others."
COMPARISON:
  • Quanta Cura (1864): CONDEMNS the idea that "liberty of conscience and of worship is the proper right of every man, which should be proclaimed and guaranteed by law"
  • Dignitatis Humanae (1965): DECLARES that "the human person has a right to religious freedom" which must be "recognized in the juridical order of society"
2. NOSTRA AETATE (Non-Christian Religions)
§2: "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men."
§3 (on Islam): "The Church also regards with esteem the Muslims who adore the one God."
COMPARISON:
  • Mortalium Animos (1928): CONDEMNS those who "consider all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy"
  • Nostra Aetate (1965): "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions" and regards their "doctrines" with "high regard"
3. DEI VERBUM (Divine Revelation)
§8: "This Tradition which comes from the Apostles progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit: for the perception of the things as well as of the words transmitted grows..."
COMPARISON:
  • Lamentabili, prop. 21 (CONDEMNED): "Revelation was not completed with the Apostles"
  • Dei Verbum §8: Tradition "progresses in the Church" and "perception grows"
4. UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO (Ecuмenism)
§3: "These separated Churches and Communities... are not deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. The Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation."
COMPARISON:
  • Mortalium Animos (1928): Union of Christians "cannot be promoted except by promoting the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ"
  • Unitatis Redintegratio (1965): Separated communities are "means of salvation"
5. LUMEN GENTIUM (The Church)
§8: "This Church... subsists in the Catholic Church governed by the successor of Peter."
COMPARISON:
  • Pre-Vatican II: The Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church (identity)
  • Lumen Gentium §8: The Church of Christ "subsists in" the Catholic Church (ambiguous)
The shift from "is" to "subsists in" suggests the Church of Christ may also exist partially elsewhere — contradicting traditional teaching on the Church's unicity.

III. SUMMARY OF CONTRADICTIONS
  • Religious liberty as a civil right → CONDEMNED by Quanta Cura → TAUGHT by Dignitatis Humanae
  • False religions have value → CONDEMNED by Mortalium Animos → TAUGHT by Nostra Aetate
  • Separated communities as means of salvation → CONDEMNED by Mortalium Animos → TAUGHT by Unitatis Redintegratio
  • Tradition/Revelation "progresses" → CONDEMNED by Lamentabili → TAUGHT by Dei Verbum
  • Church of Christ "subsists in" (not "is") the Catholic Church → Novel formulation in Lumen Gentium


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2026, 04:35:25 PM »
Dogmatic sedes would have you believe that you are required to make up your mind about whether the Pope is a heretic or not, in order to be truly Catholic.

Why would our Lord Jesus Christ expect such a complicated decision to be made by faithful when theologians have struggled with it right up until the 20th century.

Common sense prudence tells us we stay away from things that don't look Catholic. So that means the novus ordo, liberal clergy etc. etc.

We should not have to be able to quote various quotations from theologians on the vacancy of the Papacy, like some pompous fool outside Church, in order to be a good Catholic.

It is absurd on it's face, and shame on dogmatic sedes for even implying it.

Tom,

I'm a bit confused by this. And the question regarding "what is a dogmatic sede" is related to my confusion. In light of the total content of the post, I guess you take it to mean, Sedes who say one cannot be saved except by embracing Sedevacantism. 

I'm not aware of any that say that.

I am aware of those that criticize the R & R positions for contradictions,  namely in recognizing someone as a pope and then telling them to effectively pound sand on matters of faith and/or discipline, or those who are strident in proclaiming, "come out of the beast" and break all association with the apostates and heresiarchs, and truly recognize them as such if you treat them as such - i.e., don't dignify them with a title they don't have, for they ain't popes and bishops in the Catholic Church. 

It seems to me that they are just insisting on the practical implications of truths, and consistency, which I'm rather fond of. 

You have a problem with that group? Really?

DR








Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2026, 05:30:28 PM »
There is literally no one in the entire sedevacantist community that believes sedevacantism is "de fide".
There are, however, a number of Sedevacantists who believe that R&R, or what they call “Lefebvrism”, is its own distinct, separate false religion from True Catholicism and Conciliarism. I made an exception to my no social media rule today to check X for other news, and while I was at it, I also searched up various things happening in the Traditional world. I saw several people, prominent Sedevacantist figures, even, say that an Una cuм Mass is not a Catholic Mass and that both the Novus Ordo hierarchy and the SSPX clergy do not have the Catholic Faith. Another example is from this very forum. The CathInfo transcript AI posted Bishop Sanborn’s sermon a few weeks ago titled “Why Recognize and Resist is not Catholic”.

I personally find Sedevacantism to be more tenable than R&R (though I’m undecided) but there are certainly Sedevacantists who have the mindset that Sedevacantism is the only acceptable position for one to have during this Crisis, and that those who hold other positions are heretics or schismatics.

Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2026, 06:02:45 PM »

There are, however, a number of Sedevacantists who believe that R&R, or what they call “Lefebvrism”, is its own distinct, separate false religion from True Catholicism and Conciliarism. I made an exception to my no social media rule today to check X for other news, and while I was at it, I also searched up various things happening in the Traditional world. I saw several people, prominent Sedevacantist figures, even, say that an Una cuм Mass is not a Catholic Mass and that both the Novus Ordo hierarchy and the SSPX clergy do not have the Catholic Faith. Another example is from this very forum. The CathInfo transcript AI posted Bishop Sanborn’s sermon a few weeks ago titled “Why Recognize and Resist is not Catholic”.

I personally find Sedevacantism to be more tenable than R&R (though I’m undecided) but there are certainly Sedevacantists who have the mindset that Sedevacantism is the only acceptable position for one to have during this Crisis, and that those who hold other positions are heretics or schismatics.
I understand that for most people who did not read the Canon of the Mass the position that only sedevacantists are correct and the SSPX are schismatics/heretics sounds strange. But, I will demonstrate that it is the truth.

Pope Pelagius I (556-561): "How can you believe that you are not separated from communion with the universal Church if you do not mention my name within the sacred mysteries, as the custom is?"

Pius IX in Quartus Supra:

"The names of those who were separated from communion with the Catholic Church, that is of those who did not agree in all matters with the Apostolic See, are not to be read out during the sacred mysteries."

In the Canon of the Mass, the custom is to say "una cuм famulo tuo Papa nostro N". That is a custom that has existed for almost two thousands years. Ordinarily, in the canon of the mass, we have to be in communion with the Pope. Famulo tuo means "YOUR SERVANT", that is an unambiguous declaration that the person in question is the Pope. 

However.

Holy Office Decree (1729):
"Catholics who participated in rites at which heretics and schismatics were commemorated cannot excuse themselves from the sin of evil common worship or at least of pernicious scandal."

The problem is that the Vatican II "Popes" are false Popes. When saying "Una cuм... famulo tuo Leo XIV" or "Una cuм... famulo tuo Francis", that means acknowledging him as the rightful heir of Peter. 

Priests, unlike laymen, know the Canon of the Mass, they know every latin formula used during the Mass. I studied the Mass because I wanted to be a priest. 

So either two things :
_They are saying Bergoglio and so on are Popes. In which case, that is a Novus Ordite.
_They are saying the formula but they disagree with it. In which case, they are liars. Literally lying in front of God's face when doing the mass. This is one of the worst sins of sacrilege that can be committed. 

God, of course, perfectly knows the difference between the layman who cannot be faulted for not knowing latin and not knowing theology. On the other hand, priests and abbots? They cannot claim to be ignorant. 

Of course, many SSPX and R&R priests actually DO NOT say the "Una cuм famulo tuo" part, therefore my criticism isn't pointed at them. 

But, a few rabid followers of Cain have been persecuting those who preach the Truth and only the Truth, who do not tarnish their own mouths and would rather face ridicule hatred and persecution that dare lie in front of the altar. 

Re: O.L. Jesus Christ does not make things complicated - Sedevacantism
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2026, 06:28:41 PM »
Your post accuses "dogmatic sedes" . Who are these dogmatic sedes here that you are accusing?

Shifting from the thing to the person.

I expect more of you Godfrey.