Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?  (Read 863 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline IndultCat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • Reputation: +191/-110
  • Gender: Male
Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
« on: Yesterday at 07:12:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Believe it or not, there were such groups of people around 2009-2010 when the Novus Ordo liturgy changed some of its wording back to the "original" English translations.

    From its inception in 1969 until 1973, the Novus Ordo liturgy included many phrases included in the TLM such as "and with your spirit" and "Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof". However, from 1973 until around 2009-2010, the Novus Ordo liturgy changed the wording of those phrases so much that they became, for example,  "and also with you" and "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you." In 2009-2010, the Novus Ordo liturgy went back to using the accurate wording of the phrases used in the TLM. Many Novus Ordo Catholics saw this as a positive thing.

    Yet, there were some Novus Ordo Catholics who did not know any significant history of the liturgy (and who grew up saying the ICEL changes since 1973) and they became enraged that their liturgical prayers and responses were being changed for the first time in their lives (i.e. after 35 + years).

    So a few fiercely angry Novus Ordo Catholics, who felt that their mass had been ruined due to the changes, wrote many letters to their bishops and even to Vatican officials, begging and pleading with them NOT to change the Novus Ordo liturgical responses and prayers which they grew up saying. 

    Finally, when the letters and phone calls failed to stop the changes, these furious Novus Ordo Catholics ultimately declared that Pope Benedict XVI (The Rat Man) was a false pope and thus refused to attend any Novus Ordo masses because of those changes. They tried to get Novus Ordo priests to say the Novus Ordo Mass as it was said by the entire Novus Ordo Church since 1973. When they couldn't find any Novus Ordo priests to do that, they became dogmatic "Novus Ordo Sedevacantist Home-Aloners."

    Some stubborn Novus Ordo Sedevacantists even went so far as to attend Novus Ordo Masses and during the masses they would rudely shout the 1973 ICEL responses once the 2009-2010 responses had already been put into effect.

    Needless to say, all of these angry Novus Ordo Sedevacantists felt like complete idiots when they discovered that the 2009-2010 response changes were the "original" words and the ICEL-created responses they were fervently saying  since 1973 were the "distorted" and "false" words.

    Some of these Novus Ordo Sedevacantists abandoned the Novus Ordo Church and became completely Traditional while others just lost their faith altogether. Interestingly, there has never been any Novus Ordo Sedevacantist conclaves or anti-Popes who strictly adhere to the 1973 ICEL changes. Sometimes life can be very strange.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5070
    • Reputation: +1984/-246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:52:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where did this happen?  I hadn't heard this before, especially the "Novus Ordo Sedevacantist" part.

    Acceptance of the Novus Ordo, in either its earlier or later iteration, and sedevacantism, strictly speaking, have nothing to do with one another.  

    This scenario isn't mentioned in the OP, but there were some, probably on both sides of the TLM/Novus Ordo debate, who doubted Francis's papacy because they saw Benedict as either never actually having resigned (the whole munus business), or that he resigned under duress, ergo invalidly.


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4147
    • Reputation: +2434/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 08:08:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Acceptance of the Novus Ordo, in either its earlier or later iteration, and sedevacantism, strictly speaking, have nothing to do with one another.
    .

    I'm not sure if I understand your point here correctly, but the main reason for people to become sedevacantist was because the Novus Ordo could not have come from a true pope, who is protected from imposing pernicious error on the whole Church. They concluded that Paul 6th could not have been a true pope as a result.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5070
    • Reputation: +1984/-246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 09:39:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    I'm not sure if I understand your point here correctly, but the main reason for people to become sedevacantist was because the Novus Ordo could not have come from a true pope, who is protected from imposing pernicious error on the whole Church. They concluded that Paul 6th could not have been a true pope as a result.

    I refer to sedevacantism as a principle, not the phenomenon commonly known as sedevacantism today ("no valid Popes after John XXIII, or arguably even after Pius XII, due to Vatican II and things that emanated from it, such as the Novus Ordo Missae").  There is also the Siri Thesis, which had nothing to do with Vatican II or the NOM itself, but rather asserted that Cardinal Siri was the true Pope for the duration of his lifetime.  (But that's not really sedevacantism, or at least it wasn't while he was living.)

    Sedevacantism in its tersest possible definition, "we have no Pope", could in theory emerge during any putative papacy, such as the scenario described by the "Benevacantists" (Ann Barnhardt et al) who did not necessarily make any judgment on Popes before Benedict, indeed, they recognized Benedict as Pope but not Francis.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47134
    • Reputation: +27934/-5206
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 10:25:24 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sedevacantism in its tersest possible definition, "we have no Pope" ...

    I do think straight SVism is a grave mistake, and it's even a distraction from the core issue.  We should be all about "indefectibilism".  THAT is really the core principle here, the MAJOR premise behind SVism, but the SV conclusion also rests upon various MINOR premises that are far less certain.  Unfortunately, the SVs end up fighting windmills by mis-analyzing the issue.

    Similarly, it's a grave error to focus on infallibility (in the strict sense, as Msgr. Fenton called it), rather than indefectibility.  This has led to most SVs absurdly exaggerating papal infallibility in their attempt to combat R&R's equally absurd restriction of it.


    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5070
    • Reputation: +1984/-246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Novus Ordo Sedevacantists?
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 10:48:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I do think straight SVism is a grave mistake, and it's even a distraction from the core issue.  We should be all about "indefectibilism".  THAT is really the core principle here, the MAJOR premise behind SVism, but the SV conclusion also rests upon various MINOR premises that are far less certain.  Unfortunately, the SVs end up fighting windmills by mis-analyzing the issue.

    Similarly, it's a grave error to focus on infallibility (in the strict sense, as Msgr. Fenton called it), rather than indefectibility.  This has led to most SVs absurdly exaggerating papal infallibility in their attempt to combat R&R's equally absurd restriction of it.

    Could you more clearly lay out what the major premise and the minor premises are?

    And for these purposes, how would you define "infallibility" (the strict sense to which you referred) and "indefectibility"?