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Author Topic: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop  (Read 3134 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2023, 11:17:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 02, 2023, 11:08:55 AM
    Yes....if the "ut" was so insignificant, then why remove it at all?  

    Because it shouldn't have been there in the first place?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #16 on: September 02, 2023, 11:19:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on September 02, 2023, 10:01:35 AM
    I hope Sean doesn't really believe the Crisis wasn't a deliberate destruction by design. Most real Trads believe there was an infiltration by those intending to damage/destroy the Church, etc. Most real Trads believe in such a CONSPIRACY.

    Matthew-

    If you start listening to the gratuitious calumnies of Loudestmouth, you'll end up thinking the earth is flat.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #17 on: September 02, 2023, 11:25:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 02, 2023, 10:55:22 AM
    What a moron!

    Only in the delusional world of Loudestmouth can a transcriptionist’s mistaken addition of ut become part of the essential form.

    :facepalm:

    If the appearance of "ut" was a mistake, how could it be part of the essential form?

    Moreover, if "ut," per impossible, were really part of the essential form, then the unavoidable implication is that all the ordinations prior to the mistaken addition of "ut" were invalid.

    Do the sedevacantistes really want to make that argument?

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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #18 on: September 02, 2023, 12:10:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 02, 2023, 09:36:50 AM
    I admit that the “ut” you imagine to be essential is an accidental transcription error, and consequently, it’s omission could not possibly be invalidating.

    Do you really and truly believe this? :facepalm:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #19 on: September 02, 2023, 12:12:53 PM »
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    Problem is that the Holy Ghost can be invoked for any number of things.  What's missing here is the notion that the Sacramental effect is being caused by the Holy Ghost.
    Bingo.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #20 on: September 02, 2023, 12:19:14 PM »
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    I hope Sean doesn't really believe the Crisis wasn't a deliberate destruction by design. Most real Trads believe there was an infiltration by those intending to damage/destroy the Church, etc. Most real Trads believe in such a CONSPIRACY.
    The past few years, it seems that more and more, Sean has been "straining a gnat, while swallowing a camel" as the old saying goes.  On many topics, he misses the forest for the trees.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #21 on: September 02, 2023, 12:57:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on September 02, 2023, 11:25:21 AM
    If the appearance of "ut" was a mistake, how could it be part of the essential form?
    Yet it is part of the essential form so you're the one who's left with the problem.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #22 on: September 02, 2023, 01:00:58 PM »
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    • Where's the evidence that 'ut' was a transcription error?

    I'm willing to bet this idea was born in the 19th century at the latest, probably early 1900s. Right around the time when Bible verses were literally claimed to be transcription errors resulting in their removal from Novus Ordo editions.

    I'm also willing to bet Johnson just read this and ran with it, demanding no proof. Just keep on ignoring my questions, your silence is just as good for demonstrating the intellectual bankruptcy of your position.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #23 on: September 02, 2023, 01:15:16 PM »
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #24 on: September 02, 2023, 02:42:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 02, 2023, 01:15:16 PM
    Yup:

    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/melchisedech-appx11.htm
    From your link:

    the conjunction ut from the seventh line of the Latin text does not appear in the 1968 form which has been restored to the exact wording of the Leonine Sacramentary

    Your link does not provide the text of the primary source, the Leonine Sacramentary.  It only refers to books that talk about it.  Do you have another link that provides it? I, for one, would need to see the actual words of the form in the LS.
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    Offline SoldierofCtK

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #25 on: September 02, 2023, 02:58:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 02, 2023, 02:42:51 PM

    Your link does not provide the text of the primary source, the Leonine Sacramentary.  It only refers to books that talk about it.  Do you have another link that provides it? I, for one, would need to see the actual words of the form in the LS.

    Possibly this one? https://archive.org/details/sacramentariuml00feltgoog/page/n2/mode/2up
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #26 on: September 02, 2023, 03:01:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 02, 2023, 02:42:51 PM
    From your link:

    the conjunction ut from the seventh line of the Latin text does not appear in the 1968 form which has been restored to the exact wording of the Leonine Sacramentary

    Your link does not provide the text of the primary source, the Leonine Sacramentary.  It only refers to books that talk about it.  Do you have another link that provides it? I, for one, would need to see the actual words of the form in the LS.

    Davies is not to be trusted. Here is a source from 1892 with Imprimatur showing the exact words of the Rite of Ordination as it existed in the Pontificale Romanum of Leo XIII:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hn3i51&seq=130&view=2up

    That version of the Pontificale Romanum has the word "ut" in it. Look for yourself.

    Similarly, the version used by Pius XII had the same "ut" in it. Here is a link to Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis.

    Having said that, the "ut" is not the main problem. Yes, its absence should make one suspicious of the change that was made. But the real problem, the elephant in the room, is that, in Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII defined the ENTIRE PREFACE as "the form" of the Sacrament, not just two or three sentences from that Preface. The "form" of the Sacrament of Priestly Ordination (the ENTIRE PREFACE) changed drastically. The meaning of the words were very clearly changed in 1968 IN THE LATIN, as I demonstrated in this post from another thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/conditional-ordination-71994/msg901553/#msg901553

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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #27 on: September 02, 2023, 03:32:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on September 02, 2023, 03:01:42 PM
    Davies is not to be trusted. Here is a source from 1892 with Imprimatur showing the exact words of the Rite of Ordination as it existed in the Pontificale Romanum of Leo XIII:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hn3i51&seq=130&view=2up

    That version of the Pontificale Romanum has the word "ut" in it. Look for yourself.

    Similarly, the version used by Pius XII had the same "ut" in it. Here is a link to Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis.

    Having said that, the "ut" is not the main problem. Yes, its absence should make one suspicious of the change that was made. But the real problem, the elephant in the room, is that, in Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII defined the ENTIRE PREFACE as "the form" of the Sacrament, not just two or three sentences from that Preface. The "form" of the Sacrament of Priestly Ordination (the ENTIRE PREFACE) changed drastically. The meaning of the words were very clearly changed in 1968 IN THE LATIN, as I demonstrated in this post from another thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/conditional-ordination-71994/msg901553/#msg901553



    The Leonine Sacramentary is an ancient text. It was not promulgated under Leo XIII. It would be nice to have the quote from it. It may or may not be available online. I remember finding, if not the whole, some of the text in either English or Latin of the Gregorian Sacramentary in trying to find out about the way the Holy Week or simply Holy Saturday was carried out I think. 
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #28 on: September 02, 2023, 04:08:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on September 02, 2023, 11:25:21 AM
    If the appearance of "ut" was a mistake, how could it be part of the essential form?

    Moreover, if "ut," per impossible, were really part of the essential form, then the unavoidable implication is that all the ordinations prior to the mistaken addition of "ut" were invalid.

    Do the sedevacantistes really want to make that argument?
    I don't think any sedevacantists are making this argument.  Remember that Sean Johnson is a rabid anti-sedevacantist--and he's the one really making and defending this argument.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #29 on: September 02, 2023, 04:11:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on September 02, 2023, 03:01:42 PM
    Davies is not to be trusted. Here is a source from 1892 with Imprimatur showing the exact words of the Rite of Ordination as it existed in the Pontificale Romanum of Leo XIII:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hn3i51&seq=130&view=2up

    That version of the Pontificale Romanum has the word "ut" in it. Look for yourself.

    Evidently, you did not understand the point Davies was making:

    He makes no reference to Leo XIII (nor does the Leonine Sacramentary have anything to do with Leo XIII.

    The Leonine Sacramentary (which has nothing to do with any of the Leos) was in use in the 4-7th centuries.

    He's saying that a book in the 1890's said that the form was unchanged since the Leonine Sacramentary, but that the author hadn't noticed that the "ut" had crept in.
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